Ancient Art Christmas Tree - Common Sense Applies

"Moab Monkeys turn Ancient Art into Christmas Tree."

See Link - Happy Holidays

The end of video asks for your help next year.

Here are the same old questions with a different twist:

Is this the beginning of Holiday one-upmanship in Castle Valley?
How will future holiday celebrations threaten access to public spaces?
Where do we expect outdoor industry sponsors (Climbing Magazine) to draw commercial boundaries?

I believe Common Sense Applies here - This is a bad idea.
It is probably within your individual freedoms to do it (I'm not a lawyer). Just don't film it or try to popularize it.

Concerned Climber,
Jonathan Ramirez

Pure awesomeness! Looks fun. Only scrooges would complain about that good time. Merry Christmas!

a bunch of assclowns i say

I can see where you're coming from Johnny. I could see Moab area rangers or officers causing a fuss about this and claiming littering, defacing or vandalism which could lead to access problems for climbers.

Years ago a bunch of slack liners put lines up on ancient art and the cobra. Common sense tells me that's a horrible idea. It's been thrown around that that episode could have weakened the cobra enough to cause its collapse. We'll never know.

I'm of the opinion that as long as you clean up your mess and don't harm the rock, no harm no foul.

Don Ferris wrote: Years ago a bunch of slack liners put lines up on ancient art and the cobra. Common sense tells me that's a horrible idea. It's been thrown around that that episode could have weakened the cobra enough to cause its collapse. We'll never know. .

Actually, a basic understanding of mathematics and vector forces would indicate that this extremely selfish stunt almost certainly lead to the demise of the Cobra. Anybody that has climbed it knows the most narrow part was small enough to whip a sling around it as Jimmy Dunn did with a dog leash on the firs ascent.

Regarding the Christmas Tree stunt, well, if they cleaned up right away, their impact was probably no more than any other party of seven on the tower. But, the video will lead to even greater impact on this tower and many other fragile resources as it will bring more jackass-ery and more crowds to do more dumbass shit to our precious places.

Don Ferris wrote:I can see where you're coming from Johnny... I'm of the opinion that as long as you clean up your mess and don't harm the rock, no harm no foul.

This event may have left no trace. Honestly, I don't know. I do know that towers can be windy and it appears that some packaging made it into the haul bag.

Donnie, there's a larger context to this video. It promotes competitive celebration in a sensitive environment. Intent is clearly shown, "NEXT YEAR LET'S MAKE IT EVEN BIGGER!." Will all future events be perfectly choreographed?

Should we celebrate other holidays too? I'm sure someone would like to haul a fireworks display to the top of Castleton Tower for the Fourth of July. Then in successive years that group can make the display bigger, louder and better.

Climbed this route earlier this week, and there's a trail of glitter starting from the ground going to the big ledge belay before the sidewalk pitch. Why do we feel the need as a community to treat this climb as an amusement park ride? It's not permanent--just look at the cobra!

It didn't even look very good. I'm all about having fun and being absurd, but if you're going to go to the trouble of publicizing it, at least have a rad final product.
(and building a pentagram jig is way more bad ass than tacking some rebar together)

There is a long history of climbers doing silly things while on the rock. One year in Yosemite on the 4 July climbers did the tyrollean traverse from the Lost Arrow and hung a big American Flag. Not sure what the NPS thought about it.

Bummer to hear that the event was not exactly no trace.

Well, at least some attention whores got their fix. So glad we were all able to view this sick vid bro. When AA falls, that'll be equally sick. Super psyched to see Gumby... errr... Climbing Magazine post this like it's an awesome thing. More "growing the sport" syndrome. Fantastic job all around.

If they had a permit from BLM, I can see it as somewhat acceptable. If they didn't have it, I don't care who the people are in the video, they are just a bunch of asshats. And thank you Climbing magazine for promoting this kind of behavior.

You don't see us Jews hanging a menorah on any sensitive desert towers, now do ya? Those guys can shove their christmas lights up their respective butts. I can't say I really expect climbing magazine to be above publishing this, as they publish a lot of stupid stuff that somehow passes for journalism.

Greg D wrote: Actually, a basic understanding of mathematics and vector forces would indicate that this extremely selfish stunt almost certainly lead to the demise of the Cobra. Anybody that has climbed it knows the most narrow part was small enough to whip a sling around it as Jimmy Dunn did with a dog leash on the firs ascent. Regarding the Christmas Tree stunt, well, if they cleaned up right away, their impact was probably no more than any other party of seven on the tower. But, the video will lead to even greater impact on this tower and many other fragile resources as it will bring more jackass-ery and more crowds to do more dumbass shit to our precious places.

This. With regards to the Cobra..how could a rock formation (estimated at being 245 million years old, enduring years of weather) not have been severely affected by slackliners/climbers..?

colussiv wrote:Climbed this route earlier this week, and there's a trail of glitter starting from the ground going to the big ledge belay before the sidewalk pitch. Why do we feel the need as a community to treat this climb as an amusement park ride? It's not permanent--just look at the cobra!

Gross. If anything this whole thing was just done with poor taste and judgement.

Like vwall, I would encourage those who disapprove of this situation to express the same to Climbing Magazine. One easy outlet is the comments on the article itself:

climbing.com/videos/watch-m…

Butthurt Nation

Wow, some of you guys really need to get a life. I don't know how much longer I'm going to last on mp.

We should make an acronym for standing up and crying that you're offended by something in this world. Then if you guys just posted that series of letters, I wouldn't have to read your stupid posts.

Damaging the rock
Littering
Offending the Jews

What else does the baseless pity party have to offer up?

Tom Sherman wrote:Butthurt Nation Wow, some of you guys really need to get a life. I don't know how much longer I'm going to last on mp. We should make an acronym for standing up and crying that you're offended by something in this world. Then if you guys just posted that series of letters, I wouldn't have to read your stupid posts. Damaging the rock Littering Offending the Jews What else does the baseless pity party have to offer up?

People get bored even in Moab I see. Honestly this would be especially cool if it was done on some random cliff, visible from town, that nobody recreates on or cares about. As it was done not too many people will see it and it seems it was done more for the video(attention) than anything else.

It kind of reminded me of the BYU kids who made the swing video, they were having the best time of their lives for that video! Then what happened?

Also Dean Potter's arch climbing comes to mind... all for videos, all around Moab...

Greg D wrote: Actually, a basic understanding of mathematics and vector forces would indicate that this extremely selfish stunt almost certainly lead to the demise of the Cobra.

Well, like you said, "almost certainly."

Let's use our basic understanding of mathematics and solve this once and for all.

The easy part: how much force did the slackline generate?

In a worst case scenario the line was 50' long with 2' of sag. Let's say a 185 pound man walked that line. The slackline would generate about 1,150 lbf. If you increase the sag to 3 feet you come up with 770lbf which may be more reasonable for a 50' line. (Look up a slackline tension calculator if you want the math.)

Now let's estimate that from where the cobra broke to the top it's roughly 20'. This slackline basically had a 20' lever to act upon. (Base on the picture of the guy standing on top in the photos of the cobra.)

1150 x 20 gives you a moment of 23,000 lbs. Not bad
(If you go with the 3' of sag model you come up with 15,400.)

Now, how fast would the wind have to gust to generate that much force? Wind load is where this gets tricky.

Let's estimate the cobra is roughly an upside down equilateral triangle with a hypotenuse of 15' sitting on top of a rectangle that's 5'x5'. Total area of 122 square feet.

With an area of 122 square feet to push on the wind would have to gust at a whopping 29mph to generate the same force as the worst case scenario slackline and 24mph for the more reasonable model. (This is of course the wind pushing perpendicularly on a flat surface and it's also worth noting that the wind pushes over the entire structure not just the very top like the slackline would have. )

Also add in the variable that when the wind blows the hardest it's often blowing rain (just like the storm that blew the cobra over) and every climber knows rock (sandstone especially) weakens a great deal when wet.

Is this a perfect model? No way more variables than I am capable with my basic math skills to equate. But it does give you an idea that wind could easily (and much more often) generate more force than a slackline put up 4 years before it fell over. Did the slackline "weaken" the cobra? Yes, in a very general sense. Does it even register over the thousands of years of the life of the cobra? Probably not.

Please, mathematicians, engineers and internet experts, flame on.

Sorry for the thread jack.

Please

Don Ferris wrote: Well, like you said, "almost certainly." Let's use our basic understanding of mathematics and solve this once and for all. The easy part: how much force did the slackline generate? In a worst case scenario the line was 50' long with 2' of sag. Let's say a 185 pound man walked that line. The slackline would generate about 1,150 lbf. If you increase the sag to 3 feet you come up with 770lbf which may be more reasonable for a 50' line. (Look up a slackline tension calculator if you want the math.) Now let's estimate that from where the cobra broke to the top it's roughly 20'. This slackline basically had a 20' lever to act upon. (Base on the picture of the guy standing on top in the photos of the cobra.) 1150 x 20 gives you a moment of 23,000 lbs. Not bad (If you go with the 3' of sag model you come up with 15,400.) Now, how fast would the wind have to gust to generate that much force? Wind load is where this gets tricky. Let's estimate the cobra is roughly an upside down equilateral triangle with a hypotenuse of 15' sitting on top of a rectangle that's 5'x5'. Total area of 122 square feet. With an area of 122 square feet to push on the wind would have to gust at a whopping 29mph to generate the same force as the worst case scenario slackline and 24mph for the more reasonable model. (This is of course the wind pushing perpendicularly on a flat surface and it's also worth noting that the wind pushes over the entire structure not just the very top like the slackline would have. ) Also add in the variable that when the wind blows the hardest it's often blowing rain (just like the storm that blew the cobra over) and every climber knows rock (sandstone especially) weakens a great deal when wet. Is this a perfect model? No way more variables than I am capable with my basic math skills to equate. But it does give you an idea that wind could easily (and much more often) generate more force than a slackline put up 4 years before it fell over. Did the slackline "weaken" the cobra? Yes, in a very general sense. Does it even register over the thousands of years of the life of the cobra? Probably not. Please, mathematicians, engineers and internet experts, flame on. Sorry for the thread jack. Please

I would imagine a highline would have more force than that if one were to fall, which very well could have happened. That being said, wind can easily cause the same amount of force. I'm not quite familiar with the local topography of the land surrounding the former cobra. What kind of terrain sheltered the cobra from wind? How frequently do wind speeds get that high in that area?

The concept brings to mind how ridiculous the "minimum bomberness" rule for trees. If you've got a tree that has a bunch of branches and leaves, its roots going to see a lot of force with even slow speed winds. In other words, trees, even skinny ones, are a lot more bomber than many people perceive them to be.

eli poss wrote: I would imagine a highline would have more force than that if one were to fall, which very well could have happened. That being said, wind can easily cause the same amount of force. I'm not quite familiar with the local topography of the land surrounding the former cobra. What kind of terrain sheltered the cobra from wind? How frequently do wind speeds get that high in that area?

The cobra is in somewhat of an alcove. But it also fell the opposite direction of the slackline. Wind around Moab can be quite intense. I was once climbing honey moon chimney up the priest on a VERY windy day. The base of the priest is likely over 100' in diameter. When crossing from the smaller tower to the main tower I could literally feel the towers move an inch between the two. Not exaggerating. Like reaching over for a hold and watching the hold get further or closer to my hand with the wind. Pretty awesome.

The 30 trillion guided ascents of ancient art every year does way more damage then this does.