Am I going to die?

So I thought this up this afternoon, I tried it and I feel like it could work to catch real falls. But, I don't wanna die. So I'd love it if you could point out if there are some massive errors in my thinking. I used way to many knots in this test, but I didn't want to put a big fall on this setup today.

Description of Process:
One rope. Midway has two alpine butterfly knots, both clipped into a bolted anchor with lockers. Each loop has both biners through it so that the rope stays together. I realize a figure 8 could work, but I wanted extra redundancy for this test. Each knot is an alpine butterfly hitch, which I find easier to unravel if the knot was weighted, AND supposedly the butterfly transfers the load better than an overhand. I used two runners girth hitched to my harness, one for each strand of the rope.

Why this over a micro traxion? So that I can practice the hard routes clipping position. And I could clip the butterfly knots to gear or a bolt so I don't pendulum swing low down on a route.

Solo Top Rope

solo top rope

It works (since its just the time-honored fixed-loops approach to backing up your tr solo system) but the main issue is the consequences of a blown clip. Since two strands makes the whole situation fussier, you should at least benefit from it; negating the benefits of the two strands every single time you have to unclip and reclip one of your cows tails seems counterproductive. Plus, every single fall you take will be more severe than an effectively minding microtraxion, so you're wearing your rope more.

If you want to practice clipping, just clip the bolts/gear on the route you're practicing.

First...I did not read your post. Second making friends is faster and easier than Solo systems.third sorry.

P.S.
yes, you ARE going to die!

You could just use a traxion and still practice clipping/stances. Your setup is convoluted, remember KISS - keep it simple, stupid.

You could just use a traxion and still practice clipping/stances. Your setup is convoluted, remember KISS - keep it simple, stupid.

Yes, you are going to die...we just don't know when

5.9 crack on nip and tuck crag! Just lead it (you won't die, good gear!)

I haven't TR solo'd in a while, but when I did, I would do butterfly knots on one strand, which is my backup strand, and a grigri on the other.

TBlom wrote:5.9 crack on nip and tuck crag! Just lead it (you won't die, good gear!)

Oh I know. I love this route. I went to one that I know I can climb cleanly rather than on a route I might fall on.

As for KISS...I haven't heard that saying, but I love it.

@ Jake: Yeah, this line is pretty plumb. There is a hardman route at a different crag that wanders a bit that I wanted to hop on. I was worried about the swing on that route.

Eliot Augusto wrote: Description of Process: One rope. Midway has two alpine butterfly knots, both clipped into a bolted anchor with lockers. Each loop has both biners through it so that the rope stays together. Why this over a micro traxion?

I cannot see your anchor, but from the description it sounds as though you have both midway knots clipped together at the top anchor. Is this correct?

If you are thinking redundant/independent lines I would suggest separating the two knots and anchoring them independently. This ensures that if one line were to have any type of failure there is another one to back you up.

Clipping knots and falling does not tear up your rope like an mtrax could possibly do.

TBlom wrote:5.9 crack on nip and tuck crag! Just lead it (you won't die, good gear!)

This route was my first lead on gear and my first fall on gear. And I didn't die. So I believe it is impossible to die on this route.

BigFeet wrote: I cannot see your anchor, but from the description it sounds as though you have both midway knots clipped together at the top anchor. Is this correct? If you are thinking redundant/independent lines I would suggest separating the two knots and anchoring them independently. This ensures that if one line were to have any type of failure there is another one to back you up. Clipping knots and falling does not tear up your rope like an mtrax could possibly do.

I would argue that clipping knots and falling could be harder on your rope than using a trax. When clipping knots, there is slack in the line between each knot. Any fall between knots results in a fall with some amount of slack in the line. As you climb higher, there is less rope in the system and the fall factor increases. On a plumb line with a trax, there should not be any slack in the system and a fall while climbing results in only rope stretch. Essentially a lower FF than if clipping knots. As long as you keep the slack out of the system, I would not consider the teeth of a trax to be of any concern. In both systems, the biggest risk of rope damage would come from your fixed rope over an edge, most likely up near the top. Of course, if properly used, neither system should result in particularly hard falls or rope damage.

ha dude the belay controversy was so bad you just eliminated that variable altogether, eh?

Sending you an unrelated PM.

csproul wrote: I would argue that clipping knots and falling could be harder on your rope than using a trax. ...As you climb higher, there is less rope in the system and the fall factor increases. On a plumb line with a trax, there should not be any slack in the system and a fall while climbing results in only rope stretch. ...In both systems, the biggest risk of rope damage would come from your fixed rope over an edge, most likely up near the top. Of course, if properly used, neither system should result in particularly hard falls or rope damage.

This could be true due to less give in the rope between each knot, as well as, a fall on the knot can make it a p.i.t.a. at times to get undone, but I still advocate for using something besides a toothed device where no ice is involved. Yes, I realize these are used regularly and to good effect.

The other factor that you mention about more FF the higher you climb with less rope between you and the anchor is my reasoning for the knot setup being preferred. If I'm at or close to the top I would rather fall on a knot than have a chance of falling on the mtrax and having my rope shredded or the device break. I'm not saying this is going to happen, but it has, and this is just piece of mind for me.

As you stated, this is a top rope setup and there should not be any sizable slack built up, but there are times when you are above the device and close to the top of a climb, and teeth on fiber just give me the willies.

Biggest risk of the rope over an edge... I completely agree. No hard falls on top rope, and again I agree.

I don't climb around ice so I have not had a need for any of these toothed devices. I use the Petzl rescucender as my primary device and the microcender as a back up. I only tie knots in my backup line and behind the device for security.

I understand that the mtrax can be a p.i.t.a. to get free when stuck at a knot where the Petzl cenders can be disengaged quite easily.

This is a good discussion. What do others think about mtrax vs. knots.

I've used a very similar setup. I like the butterflies because they are practically bulletproof. Keep in mind that you can take a whipper on them so keeping your device tended is good practice. I use a gri gri on the primary strand, so no teeth.

Keep in mind also that the internets are scared to death of everything.

I tie butterflies at the cruxes, you could tie in hard to clip places if that's what your practicing

Yer not gonna die, but u might whip on it if you forget yourself.

:) have fun

BigFeet wrote: I cannot see your anchor, but from the description it sounds as though you have both midway knots clipped together at the top anchor. Is this correct? If you are thinking redundant/independent lines I would suggest separating the two knots and anchoring them independently. This ensures that if one line were to have any type of failure there is another one to back you up. Clipping knots and falling does not tear up your rope like an mtrax could possibly do.

It is a two bolt anchor, and each knot went to a different bolt via single length alpine draw. I threw 4 lockers in there, because why the hell not? There was also a foot of slack between each knot in case the rope broke. I didn't think it ever would break, but I wanted to be super cautious testing this thing for the first time.

>> Yer not gonna die, but u might whip on it if you forget yourself.

My main goal involves falling on it. I want to put up a TR on some hard routes and just work them over and over when I can't find a partner in the afternoons after work. Add a headlamp and its better than any gym I could pay for.

Eliot - PM me if you want a deal on a no-slack, self feeding bombproof TR self belay device. What you're doing is so much clunkier than it needs to be. M.

Wonderful gesture, Mike.

If you have to ask "am I going to die?"
Then I won't even listen to what you say
Yer gonna die

Yur gonna die boy!

Actually. I came up with a top top solo system that I've tested in a the backyard and am going to look for feedback in a bit, so I'm sure people are going to tell me I'm going to die soon too.

My system has evolved over time, but no matter what, I use a second rope and clip into 8s on a bight every 10' or so.

Started with Prussiks, then a Gibbs Ascender, now either a Soloist or a Mini Traxion.