the leader must not fall. are you seriously?

Someone (old traddie) once said (as I was feeling confident and running it out a bit):

There are old climbers and there are bold climbers.
There are no old, bold climbers.

...thus causing me to downclimb a bit, and plug a few more pieces.

Steve Knowlton wrote:There are no old, bold climbers. ...

Still Kickin'(ass that is).

are you serious,Lee?

Steve Knowlton wrote:bold climbers

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WiledHorse wrote: are you serious,Lee?

Ha! There is an old, bold, embalmed climber! I did a baby first ascent with him in the Wind Rivers about 20 years ago. It's awesome and humbling he's still cranking.

PS: Nice, subtle one, WiledHorse; I almost PM'ed asking if you didn't mean Steve. Doh!

okay, I'm throwin it down, my next climb, I'll only use quickdraws

Buff Johnson wrote:okay, I'm throwin it down, my next climb, I'll only use quickdraws

on a trad route? or will you clip them to bolts? or do they just provide ballast as you solo?

you mean there's actually a rope involved, also????

Buff Johnson wrote:okay, I'm throwin it down, my next climb, I'll only use quickdraws

Buff -
See if you can tie one of those funky Dresden knots using dogbone runners. You'd get style points for that.

Jon Ruland wrote:thanks for the responses all. to clarify, i have taken a number of whippers on gear, but recently i've had some bad experiences that could have gone much worse that have led me to question my motivation to climb over gear: i pulled a piece on 2 separate occasions separated by just a couple of weeks, leaving me with bruised heals for a couple of months from a 15-foot ground fall and some sort of wrist injury after a 30-footer smacked me into the wall. i know what went wrong on both occasions (that is, i know why my placements were bad), but the issue that sticks in my head is that there was really no way i could have reasonably avoided these situations aside from simply not getting on the climbs in the first place. the rock was deceiving from below and i had no way of knowing it was loose until it was too late. so that makes me wonder about this whole trad thing. i've had a lot of people tell me i just had "bad luck" but i've noticed that i almost never see people fall on their gear, while i see people fall on bolts all the time. i'm interested in knowing the reason for this before i continue trad climbing. are you seriously? yeah i'm totally seriously.

I went through almost the exact same thing about 5 years ago. I was pushing my physical limits trad climbing, and took a pair of 25 footers that spring, pulled a piece in each and was very lucky to avoid injury. I backed off for awhile and went through the same thoughts, about whether I wanted to keep trad climbing.

Ultimately I came back to it and even continued to climb at my physical limit on trad for a while (not anymore). I tweaked a few things though: I began placing more pro (what to some would be overprotecting--doubling up at certain spots, etc), being a little bit more selective about routes, being more likely to hang on gear or retreat (including downclimbing) in the type of situations you're talking about. Which is not to say that I completely stopped climbing into the unknown or going for it when a bigger fall was possible, but I tended to minimize those situations and commit only when I felt focused and strong. Whether through luck or design I have not taken those kinds of falls again.

I didn't want to give up trad because it opens up so many wild and beautiful places, and allows you to do many more long routes, which I love. Also, like Shawn says, even if you take it down a grade or two there is still a heck of a lot to do, if you're willing to travel.

Charles Vernon wrote: Ultimately I came back to it and even continued to climb at my physical limit on trad for a while (not anymore)

Why not? Maybe anticipating some of your answer, the follow up Q is, why weren't the precautions you mentioned enough?

shawn and charles, good advice. after doing some thinking, it seems like the best idea for me is to really know beforehand what i'm getting into, and not push it too hard. then i can go from there and push it harder or not if i see fit.

"there are no old, bold climbers" lol!

ok one more...

Shawn Mitchell wrote: Why not? Maybe anticipating some of your answer, the follow up Q is, why weren't the precautions you mentioned enough?

I don't think I understand your question.

Charles Vernon wrote: I don't think I understand your question.

You said after your close calls, you eased off for a while, but then, with certain precautions, resumed pushing your limits on gear, but "not anymore."

My question is why now you no longer climb at your limit with gear.

(I also tried to draw out your thoughts about the additional care you took with trad routes, and why you nevertheless pulled back [again] from maximum effort; maybe that's what confused the question.)

Shawn Mitchell wrote: You said after your close calls, you eased off for a while, but then, with certain precautions, resumed pushing your limits on gear, but "not anymore." My question is why now you no longer climb at your limit with gear. (I also tried to draw out your thoughts about the additional care you took with trad routes, and why you nevertheless pulled back [again] from maximum effort; maybe that's what confused the question.)

Oh, it has more (mostly) to do with climbing becoming a low priority for the last few years, due to time-consuming jobs, school, other interests. So I'm kind of an off-the-couch climber now (couple times a month), and I don't find that conducive to pushing my limits so much. Even taking additional care I still find trad climbing pretty scary.

Though I did just take a great 2-week trip visiting old haunts, right after spring semester ended. And I definitely hope to get after it (relatively speaking) again some day, sooner or later--a resurgence kind of like what you seem to be experiencing now.

If I so much as think I am going to fall (getting to the crux of a climb near my limit or I get otherwise scared at some point) I make sure I have redundant bomber gear, and sometimes when I'm not sure of the gear I equalize, equalize, and equalize!

I have been thinking alot about those climbs that really push my limit and have poor and/or runout pro. This article is interesting and sums it up pretty good. have a look...

davemacleod.com/articles/he…

I fell a short distance (5-10 feet) on a bolt and broke my leg. It was a very smooth, featureless route. Anything can happen. Be careful.

Man, when I first started trad climbing, I was terrified of a fall onto gear, even those pieces I considered bomber. Since those days I have gained a lot of trust in my gear, to the point where I am able to put that fear aside (mostly) and focus more on the climbing, which has led to much more pleasant days on the rock.  falling on, and using my pieces as occasional aid has gone far in my trust.  To this day, though, I still place more faith in a good looking bolt than I do on a well placed cam, which sort of makes no sense since I have no idea what that bolt looks like inside the rock.  Could be corroded and manky, whereas I know my gear's history and put it in the rock with m'own two hands.

The answer for me seems to be to go out and climb more on gear, to push it until I fall and thus instill (hopefully) greater faith in my rack and placement skills.

Until then, I'm perfectly happy on a multipitch 5.9 in a pretty location.

Mike wrote: If you're not falling on occasion then you aren't climbing hard enough.

If you are falling a lot your climbing too far above your ability.Must admit very rarely fell on free climbs, many times on aid.When you see how cams can rip on clean aid your not too keen to trust them when free climbing!

It's been my experience that falling is generally pretty casual until its not... I have gone through phases where I was pushing it pretty consistently for several seasons and suddenly  a routine fall turns out to be a lot more exciteing than I thought it would be.. Several times I just got too confident in micro gear, pushing it until it ripped. literaly.  One time I was hand drilling on lead and gassed out looking for the next hook to drill from, down climbed a few moves and then  jumped on to my last bolt. My bolt was bomber but a green camalot  below the bolt off to the side a bit in a wet mossy crack blew out. when that zig zag in the ropes straightened out at warp speed it made the rope long enough for me to deck.  30ft upside down gear ripper on a fairly remote adventure cliff trying to push a poorly protected iced up crack, what should have been a fairly routine fall on a bolt at my waist ends up being 20++ft due to a bunch of factors. lot of rope out, traversing, out of sight of belayer etc...  Just a few of them..       

 I might push it cragging on something I really want to get up which would most likely be an FA or FFA but anywhere that is at all remote or multi pitch I will grab gear all day long before I will take a fall.  Yes I know that 99% of the time that fall will completely casual. Its that 1% that really kicks your butt...   I also solo a lot and climb a ton of ice. Both pastimes that frown on falling... A wee bit of winter hikeing last Thursday.. falling is not an option ;)