Grading one move wonders... Is a 2 number grade jump justified?

Relating to sport / roped climbing.. If a route climbs as a solid 5.12 but has a v10+ boulder problem smack dab in the middle of the climb, does this qualify as 5.14? The route in mind is roughly 80’ in an area that is hard pressed to grade routes 5.14 or harder..

I think the relation of where the hard part is located in very pertinent. If the first 15’ are nails then eases up to moderate to mid level climbing i feel that’s easier than the hard bit towards the middle or end of the climb. That little tidbit aside, how much harder does the boulder problem have to be in comparison to the rest of the climbing to justify a 2 number grade jump?

Chris Hatzai wrote:

Relating to sport / roped climbing.. If a route climbs as a solid 5.12 but has a v10+ boulder problem smack dab in the middle of the climb, does this qualify as 5.14? The route in mind is roughly 80’ in an area that is hard pressed to grade routes 5.14 or harder..

I think the relation of where the hard part is located in very pertinent. If the first 15’ are nails then eases up to moderate to mid level climbing i feel that’s easier than the hard bit towards the middle or end of the climb. That little tidbit aside, how much harder does the boulder problem have to be in comparison to the rest of the climbing to justify a 2 number grade jump?

I'd sure want to know that there's a move 2 full grades harder than the rest of the route. I'd feel sandbagged if the route were rated one grade less than that single move crux. 

I thought the general protocol for YDS was to grade  at the level of the hardest move?

JFM wrote:

I thought the general protocol for YDS was to grade  at the level of the hardest move?

It is. Modern hard routes have resulted in adding an endurance factor to the grade. A route that has a lot of 11a and 11b leading into a 20' of 11d followed by the crux 12a move and finished with more 11a will be rated harder than a route that is mostly 10b with a single 12a move. The ability to rest before moves vs no rests can also affect the grade. 

All of that is quite different than the OP's question.

http://peripheralscrutiny.blogspot.com/2011/06/landscape-new-look-at-route-grades.html - the best article for V-grade/route grade comparison.

A single V10 move would automatically put the route in the 5.14- range. As for whether the 5.12 would add to the grade - maybe if it was sustained 5.12, directly into the V10 without a rest. But that depends on the specifics of the route.

The YDS scale hasn't been about the hardest move since the 80's or earlier. Otherwise nothing at the Red River Gorge would be above 5.12.

Marc801 C wrote:

It is. Modern hard routes have resulted in adding an endurance factor to the grade. A route that has a lot of 11a and 11b leading into a 20' of 11d followed by the crux 12a move and finished with more 11a will be rated harder than a route that is mostly 10b with a single 12a move. The ability to rest before moves vs no rests can also affect the grade. 

All of that is quite different than the OP's question.

I probably won't run into the situation (ie, climb "hard" grades) so it won't likely ever affect me-- but per your example above, would the "harder" route then be graded above 12a or would the easier one be graded below?

I'm not seeing how the OP's scenario is different (though I can be obtuse at times). Is he proposing a route that is 5.12 except for a few 5.14 moves in the middle, and wondering if the grade should be 12 or 14? 

Edit: maybe the YDS / hardest move bit works well for easy and moderate climbing and fails to appropriately characterize hard routes.

I think that split grades, like 5.12, V10, make a lot of sense in this situation. It says that to send the whole thing is 5.14, but it isn't very sustained.

Do whatever, bud.

Marc801 C wrote:

I'd sure want to know that there's a move 2 full grades harder than the rest of the route. I'd feel sandbagged if the route were rated one grade less than that single move crux. 

I agree.  It would be pretty unreasonable to expect a 5.12 climber to pull a V10 boulder problem.

JFM wrote:

Edit: maybe the YDS / hardest move bit works well for easy and moderate climbing and fails to appropriately characterize hard routes.

Not necessarily. Reed's Pinnacle Direct in Yosemite has always been graded 5.9, yet there's really no move harder than 5.7. There is also hardly any move that is easier than 5.7.

Another example is a route (I forget the name) on Cathedral Ledge NH that was rated 5.9+ in the 80's. It gets a modern grade of 11b, but doesn't have any 5.11 moves (yes, it was considered sandbagged in the 80's because there definitely are moves harder than 9+).

JFM wrote:

I probably won't run into the situation (ie, climb "hard" grades) so it won't likely ever affect me-- but per your example above, would the "harder" route then be graded above 12a or would the easier one be graded below?

They are both at least 5.12a. The crux boulder problem determines the lower bound rating, but the route can be graded harder than 5.12a based on how sustained it is.

The old “graded by the hardest move” stopped being a thing a long time ago in most areas.

For the OP, that route should have a minimum grade of 5.13d or 5.14a. Just as 5.11 climbing to a V7 crux should be 5.13a at minimum, and 5.10 climbing to a V4 crux should be 5.12a at a minimum. I will never climb 5.14a, but I have climbed 5.13a, and I think the same rules apply

JFM wrote:

I thought the general protocol for YDS was to grade  at the level of the hardest move?

That was the old system of grading they no longer grade routes by the single hardest move.

Good discussion with respectful replies - an MP anomaly. Where's Burchy offering to fight someone?!

ChrisHau wrote:

http://peripheralscrutiny.blogspot.com/2011/06/landscape-new-look-at-route-grades.html - the best article for V-grade/route grade comparison.

A single V10 move would automatically put the route in the 5.14- range. As for whether the 5.12 would add to the grade - maybe if it was sustained 5.12, directly into the V10 without a rest. But that depends on the specifics of the route.

The YDS scale hasn't been about the hardest move since the 80's or earlier. Otherwise nothing at the Red River Gorge would be above 5.12.

Good article.

The way I see, the grade is "how hard is it to redpoint this thing". To me that's the definition of a grade and it usually works. If you see it this way, you don't really need to fiddle about with the details - it may be of a given grade because it's sustained with a easy-when-fresh-but-hard-after-100-feet crux at the top, or may be a single move-wonder at the top making it that grade, or a lot of delicated sequences making likely you'll pop off on any given attempt, etc.

It also has nothing to do, imo, with how hard it is or not to onsight.

Depends if it has a chipped or drilled hold

Darren Mabe wrote:

Depends if it has a chipped or drilled hold

Huh?

Grades are subjective and intended as a rough guide to the physical difficulty. V grades have no place on a route unless used strictly as a descriptor. 

Being a one move wonder would simply result in a softer grade than if the climb was sustained.

Franck Vee wrote:

Good article.

The way I see, the grade is "how hard is it to redpoint this thing". To me that's the definition of a grade and it usually works. If you see it this way, you don't really need to fiddle about with the details - it may be of a given grade because it's sustained with a easy-when-fresh-but-hard-after-100-feet crux at the top, or may be a single move-wonder at the top making it that grade, or a lot of delicated sequences making likely you'll pop off on any given attempt, etc.

It also has nothing to do, imo, with how hard it is or not to onsight.

While i agree at first glance with, 'how hard is this to redpoint?' thinking, i disagree after second thought. The thing about projecting is by the end of the project it will feel easier. An assertion i make based on experience-where warming up on well known problems or routes is often easier than trying to onsite something new a few grades below what we know.

I have a good friend who considers himself a 5.12 climber. As a first ascensionist, he put well over 100 attempts on a route of his, tried four or five different kinds of shoes, and finally sent when he said temps were good. He then promptly rated the route 5.12, because he's a '5.12 climber' and finally redpointed his route. (this is my only problem with 'how hard is it to redpoint' thinking.)

Killer blogpost linked by the way. Very informative and fun look at data. Esp this bit 

"I've seen 5.11 divided into 11 different grades of increasing difficulty, as follows:
5.11a, 5.10d, 5.11-, 5.11b, 5.11, 5.11c, 5.9 squeeze, 5.11+, 5.10 OW [offwidth], 5.12a, 5.11d."

          -Brutus of Wyde

Red pointing, you’ve worked out the beta and probably performed it nearly perfectly, so of course it will *feel* easier.  Doesn’t have any effect on the rock itself.

Downtownt Kay wrote:

While i agree at first glance with, 'how hard is this to redpoint?' thinking, i disagree after second thought. The thing about projecting is by the end of the project it will feel easier. An assertion i make based on experience-where warming up on well known problems or routes is often easier than trying to onsite something new a few grades below what we know.

Evaluating grades is hard and will always be somewhat subjective. However, redpointing is still I think the closest to a reliable measure we can find.

Let's say grade difficulty isn't about redpointing - we still need to agree on some sort of "ascent style" on which to base it. So this could be:

• Onsight
• Flash
• Redpoint
• Some combination of the above

However, "some combination" rapidly becomes tricky to define. How do you reconcile in a grade a route that is really hard to onsight, but easy to redpoint after the magic hold above the roof has been found?

Similarly for onsight/flash: how do you grade a route were that is ultimately, in terms of pure execution, say 11b. But at the crux, all the intuitive sequences and first attempt people make avoid the best beta, use sub-optimal holds and/or positioning and feels like 12a. Or a hidden hold route that yields a similar gap.

At least if you base it on redpointing, you can simply ignore all those details - it yields an indication of how hard the moves once the beta is sussed out and the route is known. So that everyone can evaluate it with comparable knowledge.

But yeah, "after" redpoint will often feel easier.

Marc801 C wrote:

I'd sure want to know that there's a move 2 full grades harder than the rest of the route. I'd feel sandbagged if the route were rated one grade less than that single move crux. 

Stay away from Gunks plus-rated routes, then. A mostly 5.8 climb with a 5.11 move = 5.8+ here.

Stop ruining this for me.