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how much would you trust these TR/lowering anchors?

Original Post
Nolan Fulton · · Huntsville, AL · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 1,938

TIG welded 1/2" 316 stainless steel. welded to 1" 316 round stock with a 3/8" hole.

Nolan Fulton · · Huntsville, AL · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 1,938

I had some extra material laying around at work. Im trying to accomplish free anchors and not using up all my hangers and other hardware.   

They wont be top roped directly off of the anchor. of coarse quick draws will be used for top roping. only wear i can see is from when i leader doesnt want to rap. and just wants too thread and lower. 

Majority of the time im sure someone will want to top rope it after the leader and would place some draws on them.

Nolan Fulton · · Huntsville, AL · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 1,938
Russ Walling wrote:

I can dig it.... if you can convince the top ropers and lower me guys to avoid those high wear practices through the shuts.

Besides that, looks good to me.  I would not worry about those (standard caveats of course) if I found them at the top of a route.

Throw some 3/8" quicklinks on them? 

Jack C · · Green River, UT · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 325

One of these and one standard hanger with a quicklink would increase the likelihood they would be perceived as "safe" (being home made but coupled with a store-bought hanger) and would decrease the chance people would just want to TR directly through them.  The kinks a quicklink paired with a shut can cause are obnoxious and it's  much harder to TR directly through a smaller quicklink than one of these beauties of course. Nice work!

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

Too be honest today when I see homemade anchors I think WTF. No one knows the quality or consistency of your welds. Toss them in scrap metal bin.  There are so many quality commercial options that can be trusted by all that cost little it is silly to be making homemade anchors.

Nolan Fulton wrote: Majority of the time im sure someone will want to top rope it after the leader and would place some draws on them.

Uh no, bad assumption. This summer I saw someone TR through the anchors so I politely mentioned hanging draws was preferable. Their reply was that they had established the route and put in the anchors so it was okay. ?????

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Allen Sanderson wrote:

Uh no, bad assumption. This summer I saw someone TR through the anchors so I politely mentioned hanging draws was preferable. Their reply was that they had established the route and put in the anchors so it was okay. ?????

Not a good example for others maybe, but if somebody spends their own money and time to put in the anchors, then I figure they can do whatever they want with them.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Lowering off those things will likely twist the rope severely. Typically, the anchor must meet at a single point to prevent rope twists. There are some exceptions, but they are rare. I would recommend a test run, but I am confident those will twist the rope when lowering as I've lowered off other anchors just like that and they twisted the rope.

CTB · · Cave Creek, AZ · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 305

The fact that these start off as two seperate pieces is why they would scare me. Ive been in the fab business a long time and I do appreciate the sketchy diy stuff that some people end up dabbling in. 

There are MANY reasons it's better to form a hanger from a SINGLE piece of material.  Im sure plenty of fab guys would argue that if the weld is good than its probably stronger than the original material.... so how do YOU know?

Its one thing to risk your life trusting hundreds of welded joints in a roll cage.... its another thing to trust it on the quality of a single bead on each hanger.  Not to mention that if you put those up others will be trusting their lives on them.

I dont care what certifications you got.  Learn to form an eyelet if you wana use round bar stock to make hangers.  Or better yet only put up quality hardware and go weld yourself a new spice rack with that scrap.

Try not to kill yourself or anyone else please.

Nolan Fulton · · Huntsville, AL · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 1,938
CTB wrote:

The fact that these start off as two seperate pieces is why they would scare me. Ive been in the fab business a long time and I do appreciate the sketchy diy stuff that some people end up dabbling in. 

There are MANY reasons it's better to form a hanger from a SINGLE piece of material.  Im sure plenty of fab guys would argue that if the weld is good than its probably stronger than the original material.... so how do YOU know?

Its one thing to risk your life trusting hundreds of welded joints in a roll cage.... its another thing to trust it on the quality of a single bead on each hanger.  Not to mention that if you put those up others will be trusting their lives on them.

I dont care what certifications you got.  Learn to form an eyelet if you wana use round bar stock to make hangers.  Or better yet only put up quality hardware and go weld yourself a new spice rack with that scrap.

Try not to kill yourself or anyone else please.

Yes, I completely agree. I thought about making some with an eyelet after I fabricated these up. It’s certainly on the list to do next week in my spare time. 

The question would be. What diameter would be ideal? Strong enough to last and not wear quickly. But also small enough to make a 3/16 bend radius. 

ive seen Bolt Products anchors and they use 6mm or 8mm rod. 

http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.htm

Nolan Fulton · · Huntsville, AL · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 1,938

Thanks for everyone’s replies. Even the harsh ones.

i have quality stainless hangers to put up I was just dabbling in using some extra material I had in the shop.. there seems to be some mixed feelings about these and I completely agree. Looking on it now. Some people may anchor to these and not know that I’m a certified welder and be a little sketched out. 

Next week I’ll try and fab up some from a single piece of material. 

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Nolan Fulton · · Huntsville, AL · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 1,938

Thanks Jim! Yea I’m going to give it a go on some 304 3/8” stock and try and make a 3/8” eyelet next week. 

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648

They are probably fine, but as has been mentioned, If I came across these on a route, I would have no idea who made them and would not trust them.  The biggest issue is that they are two separate pieces welded together and if that weld broke you are SOL.  When I come across something like this, how do I even know if the two pieces are the same material.  At least if it is a single piece of material that is bent and welded I know that the un-welded version would at least hold body weight so while not ideal, I can at least trust lowering or rapping off of them.  With how inexpensive bolt hangers are, I would just fork out the little bit of money to put up something that looks good and isn't scary.  If you use these, most likely someone will come along and replace them with real hardware in the not too distant future (most likely having to replace the bolt as well), so what are you really saving?  In the end you will just be causing additional work and expense for someone else and it won't be saving anything.  

Nolan Fulton · · Huntsville, AL · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 1,938
Ken Noyce wrote:

They are probably fine, but as has been mentioned, If I came across these on a route, I would have no idea who made them and would not trust them.  The biggest issue is that they are two separate pieces welded together and if that weld broke you are SOL.  When I come across something like this, how do I even know if the two pieces are the same material.  At least if it is a single piece of material that is bent and welded I know that the un-welded version would at least hold body weight so while not ideal, I can at least trust lowering or rapping off of them.  With how inexpensive bolt hangers are, I would just fork out the little bit of money to put up something that looks good and isn't scary.  If you use these, most likely someone will come along and replace them with real hardware in the not too distant future (most likely having to replace the bolt as well), so what are you really saving?  In the end you will just be causing additional work and expense for someone else and it won't be saving anything.  

Good point! 

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

Did I miss where you gave us the results of pull testing a bunch of these?  Materials, design, and your trade certification mean nothing to me without some proof testing.

Franck Vee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 260

I don't really setup routes... but from a user perspective... I would inspect them. I would trust them myself for rappel and for lowering - unless the cleaning of the route is hard and likely to warrant lots of messing around. Then I might be a bit more hesitant (probably back-clean instead). But overall I like that the point where the rope hang is close to the bolt/wall, therefore you wouldn't have that much stress on the weld itself for lower/rap. From my perspective, not knowing who made that up, the weld is definitely suspicious and there are a tons of ways a weld can be poorly made, which can't necessarily be seen just by inspecting it.

I'm not positive I would TR off those, if for some reason I wanted to TR that route. I don't think I would setup a TR for someone else  - if I setup a TR for someone else, that person isn't that likely to be better able to judge anyways, so it's my call made on their behalf. So I'd be even more reluctant.

That being said, between that and worn-out "legit" rings, I'm not sure which one I would prefer...

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Ken Noyce wrote:

They are probably fine, but as has been mentioned, If I came across these on a route, I would have no idea who made them and would not trust them.  The biggest issue is that they are two separate pieces welded together and if that weld broke you are SOL.  When I come across something like this, how do I even know if the two pieces are the same material.  At least if it is a single piece of material that is bent and welded I know that the un-welded version would at least hold body weight so while not ideal, I can at least trust lowering or rapping off of them. 

This is how I work/think. While I´m not a welder as such I´ve been doing it for 50 odd years as part of other stuff and have a reasonable idea what to do if the weld is critical or not (I´ve been certified for various things and built race cars, motocross bike frames, airplanes, gas pipelines and stuff like that). If you can design out the dependence on a single weld you do, something like a ring or a chain link the weld is suprisingly unimportant. The first tack weld I put in an 8mm ring (or in fact those hangers) gets it from maybe 4-6kN straight up to 50kN and so the rest of the welding is just a bonus really. There´s two problems generally with welding, first you want a protocol which specifies how much penetration you get because welding small sections you can put too much heat into the area being welded and it all starts getting weaker. That´s all relative though since the things are always strong enough but just something one should do. The second bigger issue is not going deep enough, a so-called cold weld. It´s easy to melt some metal and drop it onto the surface, it looks like a weld but the molten metal is actually just frozen onto the thing you are welding and will either just fail anyway or corrode badly at the join. With only a single weld between you and the ground this could be an issue and I don´t make any products that work this way.

Testing- well yes. While I have to test a certain amount for QC most of what I make (bolts) is effectively tested while it´s being made and the rest I´ve busted enough over the years to know what´s going on and what can go wrong. In reality most of what I test is to keep my confidence in what I´m producing, I start a batch and as one works it kinda nags in the back of ones mind that maybe it isn´t as good as before, maybe the metal isn´t what it should be, am I going too fast and stuff like that and so it´s nice to hang a few on the tester and see big numbers! The poster on the wall behind my workbench says "Someone else´s loved one is relying on this."  For home-builders it doesn´t need to be complicated, fix it to a fork-lift and see if the karabiner breaks first is fine.

Getting it all done;- bending, welding, cleaning, surface treatment, passivation and testing at an economic price is the real challenge  

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

I find it amazing when people make comments about these(made by a climber) being unsafe when you have gear like cables/cams being thrown together (by non climbers) in suspect countries. My experience with welding is small but my experience using welded chain to pull and lift things in the thousands of pounds range is fairly extensive and not once have I seen standard 5/16" to 3/8" hardware store chain break(or any quicklinks either).

I'd be happy to see these at an anchor.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
T Roper wrote:

I find it amazing when people make comments about these(made by a climber) being unsafe when you have gear like cables/cams being thrown together (by non climbers) in suspect countries. My experience with welding is small but my experience using welded chain to pull and lift things in the thousands of pounds range is fairly extensive and not once have I seen standard 5/16" to 3/8" hardware store chain break(or any quicklinks either).

I'd be happy to see these at an anchor.

Wow, the ignorance in this post is astounding.  I can tell you with great certainty that it would be very easy to make an anchor that looks identical to what the OP posted that wouldn't even hold body weight.  Cables/cams in suspect countries are still strength tested prior to their use, 5/16" to 3/8" hardware store chain  would easily hold body weight and much more without having a single weld on it.  Please read Jim Titt's post above as it tells a bit more of the story about a welded link like a chain.  

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

Wow Kenny, bad day at the office bro? His work looks good enough to me and quite a few others, at least good enough for single pitch anchors in Alabama.

Nolan Fulton · · Huntsville, AL · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 1,938
T Roper wrote:

Wow Kenny, bad day at the office bro? His work looks good enough to me and quite a few others, at least good enough for single pitch anchors in Alabama.

HAha ive seen much worse and have seen people lowering off single rusted cold shuts around here in Alabama as well. 

Its okay guys these are going to go in my tool box.

Just got done bolting some routes at local crag about an hour ago. I used all stainless bolts and Fixe hangers.

everything is good in the world. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Fixed Hardware: Bolts & Anchors
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