Grandfathers old gear

King Tut wrote:

 Once you've hung on the piece the knot isn't coming loose on its own again.

In my experience this isn't true. I rack my draws and my single rack on a shoulder length sling tied in a waterknot from 1" webbing. I tie the tails to be about 1-2 inches long and every year or so the tails get to be a bit too short for comfort (around 1cm) so I retie them.

My understanding is that weighting the knot reduces the amount of slippage, but you do get a very small amount of slippage with each cycle of loading and unloading. The tails will always slip, it just may not make a difference for a few years, depending on how frequently the sling is loaded.

And I resent the use of unfamiliar words to describe me. If you're going to insult me, at least use a word that I can understand! ;)

Edited to clarify

"Loading and unloading" a water knot does not loosen it. If you had ever tried to untie a cam that had been used on an aid wall you would know this let alone one that had been fallen on. Until they have been weighted much you do keep an eye on the knot, but that is what you should be doing regardless of the one chosen.

Be that as it may, 5.5mm spectra cord like what appears to be on the others is preferable in that application. That cord being stiff the fisherman's knot being used is the choice there.

But a water knot is superior for a tied sling, hands down. If you had some real experience in the Alpine or other multi-pitch climbing you would know this.

Concentrate less on theory and more what actually works in practice. A sling like the one over your shoulder is precisely the one you want to be able to easily untie in pinch to be used in any number of useful applications. This will become more clear in time when you start climbing larger objectives.

I'm not trying to be insulting or to put you down in the slightest. But you have repeatedly made clear that you have little multi-pitch experience and that is where Marc and I are coming from.

King Tut wrote:

lol....back in your cave! :P

Russ Walling wrote:

 

Hey Russy, you ever remember going to the sweet shop with me and Dave Lanman and his brother et al in about 1979?

You loved us so much you made us honorary members of the DLFA...told Russell about it years later and he said you weren't authorized to do it...lol.

Also, always wondered if it was you or Russ who put the DLFA grafitti in the Yose jail?....I spent a night there, pretty sure you both have too....?

eli poss wrote:

 resorting to personal attacks. 

Pointing out that your opinion is backed by significantly less experience than his is not a personal attack.

King Tut wrote:

"Loading and unloading" a water knot does not loosen it.

Going to correct you here.  Loading and unloading eventually does work a water nknot loose.  I think it was a few years ago, but a guide in the tetons died from this on his personal tether..  After that, I think it was the UIAA that dis some cycling on tied water knots to failure.  A water knot is not a knot to tie and forget... Ever.

Eli wrote:

Pointing out that your opinion is backed by significantly less experience than his is not a personal attack.

It sure seems like one, especially when my less experience is consistent with scientific data. Like I said earlier, I have seen tails on a water knot slip over an inch in the span of a year. Are you saying that because I only have 5 years of climbing under my belt that my observations are wrong? 

Pete Spri wrote:Going to correct you here.  Loading and unloading eventually does work a water nknot loose.  I think it was a few years ago, but a guide in the tetons died from this on his personal tether..  After that, I think it was the UIAA that dis some cycling on tied water knots to failure.  A water knot is not a knot to tie and forget... Ever.

I would have to see the precise test conditions to establish this and will likely end up conceding that massive numbers of cycles can eventually lead to creep in the knot...this is not the same at all as a water knot being weighted and then coming untied on its own soon afterwards.

Here's your testing:

https://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Water_Knot_Testing.pdf

Here's the info related to the likelyhood of his knot pulling through as evidenced by discoloration.

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/knot-slip-likely-killed-falk/article_3e912c8f-059b-5a84-ae95-3c4e13f8d23e.html

eli poss wrote:

It sure seems like one, especially when my less experience is consistent with scientific data. Like I said earlier, I have seen tails on a water knot slip over an inch in the span of a year. Are you saying that because I only have 5 years of climbing under my belt that my observations are wrong? 

If you are not climbing in a place with long rock climbs and routinely burning through slings on multiple rappels due to the length of the routes then it doesn't matter how long you have been climbing. You simply don't have the experience with tied slings.

Pete Spri wrote:

Here's your testing:

https://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Water_Knot_Testing.pdf

Here's the info related to the likelyhood of his knot pulling through as evidenced by discoloration.

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/knot-slip-likely-killed-falk/article_3e912c8f-059b-5a84-ae95-3c4e13f8d23e.html

This is the key: "The load was cycled from 0 to 250 lbs at a fairly slow loading and unloading rate (about two seconds per cycle)."

This is consistent with a personal tether failing. Not with a knot failing that has been weighted to become tight, but not cycled like this.

But, YES, I will concede that virtually any knot, if cycled enough will creep and untie or cut itself to failure. That is how they all fail.

King Tut wrote:

This is the key: "The load was cycled from 0 to 250 lbs at a fairly slow loading and unloading rate (about two seconds per cycle)."

This is consistent with a personal tether failing. Not with a knot failing that has been weighted to become tight, but not cycled like this.

But, YES, I will concede that virtually any knot, if cycled enough will creep and untie or cut itself to failure. That is how they all fail.

If that is your take-away, then you are blinding yourself to just be "right".  This is a consistent and comparable failure mechanism to tying off pro like you recommended up post.  Pro loads and unloads.  Rap slings load and unload.  These are all loading and unloading scenarios where water knots are commonly used. 

King Tut wrote:

Once you've hung on the piece the knot isn't coming loose on its own again. People that say otherwise need to go climbing more and if they say they never hang on their cams then they should be pushing their limits more. :P

You are now also wrong when you say that every knot will fail like this eventually.  You clearly did not read the study.  The control of the grapevine/fishermans/barrel knot did not fail, and a water knot with back ups on the tails did not fail, though it still could.

I suggest you slow down and read the info, and then stop recommending/supporting patterns of behavior that are not safe in climbing.  I'm going to leave it at this.  Best of luck to you.  

From the conclusions of the study [2nd link]:

 "Water knots definitely fail byslipping under cyclic loading. Low loads, such as bodyweight, are sufficient to cause failure. Other knots (such as a single fisherman's) tied in the same material do not exhibit this kind of failure.Overhand safeties tied on top of a water knotmay preventthe failure, but do not guarantee it.  This is not all bad news for water knots. I now understand the mechanism of failure and know how to prevent it. This is a lot more comforting than using a knot about which I have suspicions. I will always check the length of the tails on every water knot - and particularly every fixed rappel anchor tied with a water knot - before trusting my life to it."

Pete Spri wrote:

If that is your take-away, then you are blinding yourself to just be "right".  This is a consistent and comparable failure mechanism to tying off pro like you recommended up post.  Pro loads and unloads.  Rap slings load and unload.  These are all loading and unloading scenarios where water knots are commonly used. 

You are now also wrong when you say that every knot will fail like this eventually.  You clearly did not read the study.  The control of the grapevine/fishermans/barrel knot did not fail, and a water knot with back ups on the tails did not fail, though it still could.

I suggest you slow down and read the info, and then stop recommending/supporting patterns of behavior that are not safe in climbing.  I'm going to leave it at this.  Best of luck to you.  

From the conclusions of the study [2nd link]:

No bro, I am not blinding myself to anything, we are just having a failure to communicate.

Every knot ever conceived by man ultimately fails under cyclic loads, it is only a question of how many cycles it takes. Look that up.

If the knot is not creeping, it is sawing itself, and will fail in time. That is how every knot works. Some take longer than others is all. That is why there is no such thing as a "100%" knot.

My suggestion is that you read the thread because we have already talked about all of this. Pro is not cycled through loads precisely how you describe unless you are talking relatively micro loads like hand tightening before the day or rope drag, use at anchors etc. In the case of knots on slings once weighted heavily they simply don't come untied over the rest of the life of the sling unless (as the test shows) they are cycled hundreds of times. This is based on 40 years of climbing experience on cams that me and my partners have had since the early 80's and have done multiple El Cap routes with them. YES, there is some small amount of creep...but no, if they are not used for aiding any more they simply don't come untied until its time to cut the sling off in regular use. The knot is now so tight that low load cycling has no effect to be concerned with. That is what we are talking about. Do you have cams that have been used that way?

Go take a whip onto a cam with a tied sling using a water knot (have you ever?) I promise you that you don't have to worry about that knot coming undone on its own ever again, unless you are going to do a pile of C1 Grade VIs with it then you may have to deal with creep. Whoopi do, check your knots and replace old slings?

This guide had his PAS water knot apparently fail from cyclic loading. That is entirely different from taking a whip onto a sling tied with a water knot or using it to aid El Cap and then (your suggestion) that it then comes miraculously untied afterwards when you are just doing regular trad routes. They don't. And the loads on a PAS used for raps stations when guiding is totally different than hanging in space on it for 5 days and using it on multiple routes.

I did my first El Cap route on a hand tied daisy (before sewn runners were invented). Those knots were never coming untied bro.

I can even buy that poorly tied water knots at anchor stations may come untied eventually from cyclic loading at an exceptionally busy station due to the low loads...but in reality being able to easily untie to remove them is more beneficial as the vast majority never fail, they rot first. If someone had an accident from a bad knot that someone tied poorly, its on them, not the knot itself. What was this, like once or twice in Climbing History? It was on them for not inspecting the tails.

Worrying about this as well simply betrays a lack of experience. Everyone knows you have to inspect the slings at a rappel station. There is no inherently superior knot to use or any particularly bad in common use. Tying it properly is all that matters. We went through all this experimenting with different knots to use on tied runners about 40 years ago. The Water Knot is the best one to use when you are actually climbing with them because of the very ease of untying it. The point of using a tied runner is that you can untie it easily, even if its been weighted. And you can't do that with a fisherman's knot.

These people that have never climbed anything and learn about climbing on the interwebs crack me up. Marc and I (in this particular thread) both understand exactly what I am talking about. Its based on actually climbing and using tied runners for decades.

Ah, I see.  Your old and we are young,so you know better.  No, actually you are still wrong about water knots failing from creep, as Eli first pointes out, and you are still also wrong about every knot failing with creep.  Carry on thinking your years of experience prove you correct, regardless of the evidence, I wont stop you.

Pete Spri wrote:

Ah, I see.  Your old and we are young,so you know better.  No, actually you are still wrong about water knots failing from creep, as Eli first pointes out, and you are still also wrong about every knot failing with creep.  Carry on thinking your years of experience prove you correct, regardless of the evidence, I wont stop you.

Your test shows it taking 800 slow 250# cycles for the 2.8" tails to fail on a water knot.

It doesn't show what happens after you load it once, to say 4-5kn (ie a good whip) and then see if the low weight cycles have any effect. Here's some words of wisdom: They don't for the rest of the useful life of the sling it will wear out or be sun bleached long before.

Use that to stay safe however you want.

The disconnect here is the difference between actual climbing practice and the unique characteristics of the test.

The hand tight single length runners I take have to be checked all the time.

The knots on stuff that has taken a whip or been weighted many times are rock hard. That doesn't mean I don't look at them. But they ain't coming untied on their own from some kind of micro load cycling. This is what actual climbing experience teaches you instead of learning about climbing on the interwebs.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that I've had a shoulder length sling creep at least 1" within a year and sling had been loaded enough to have a "welded tight" knot. That left it with an inch of tail so I decided to retie it. If you want to ignore that, then fine, I won't waste any time arguing with you.

that gear is in such good shape I'd keep it that way. Modern gear is a lot nicer and you could pay for it by skipping a few trips to the bar/concerts/whatever. 

And some other non-knot related info. The larger rigid stem friend has the recall axle from about '86 (fuzzy recollection on the year)...... JB