Requesting "Ladies Crag" forum

We are discussing this idea and many other smaller changes related to forum management.  I'm not ignoring this thread, just not acting on it quite yet.  Thanks for the (mostly) good dialog in this one!

Max Tepfer wrote:

While it's obviously within one's 1st amendment rights to be a jerk and/or otherwise sideline someone else's discussion, it's distracting, annoying, and generally reduces the quality of the content. (as it has here at MP to the point that the vast majority of the forum discussion isn't really worth anyone's time.

Hi Max, good comment but that last bit is a little off. I hear it all the time and use to be guilty of using the 1st incorrectly as well.

The first amendment does not give anyone a "right" to say whatever they want on a privately owned and operated website and we just all have to deal with it. The 1st amendment only limits the government from censoring your speech. This cartoon can say the rest for me.

So did the Ladies Forum get created yet?

Hobo Greg wrote:

I may not have periods, but friends and partners of mine have, and I recommend things like the diva cup to friends all the time. Don't you think that by limiting yourself to half the population, you are missing out on potential help? It goes both ways, I would never argue for an all-male group because that would never be as effective as if you included everyone.

I created a thread specifically asking for women's feedback and look what happened. Not only were men incapable of holding back their opinions (or in even understanding why it wasn't being solicited), but many were offended by the very idea that their opinions mattered less on this topic. Although it was created by a man, the thread would have been posted in a women-specific forum if there were one. Try re-reading that thread while ignoring all of the men's responses (including my own) and tell me it isn't infinitely more constructive as a result.

Nate Ball wrote:

I created a thread specifically asking for women's feedback and look what happened. Not only were men incapable of holding back their opinions (or in even understanding why it wasn't being solicited), but many were offended by the very idea that their opinions mattered less on this topic. Although it was created by a man, the thread would have been posted in a women-specific forum if there were one. Try re-reading that thread while ignoring all of the men's responses (including my own) and tell me it isn't infinitely more constructive as a result.

You're not being honest, Nate. Your original post said mens' responses would be "appreciated," but you preferred women to respond. It was an ambiguous, poorly worded post. Then, you changed it to remove the option for men to post.

JSH wrote:

And you, Frank, have been the most vocal person in a women's thread.  Congrats!  You win!  Go ahead, reply:

Men weren't banned from posting in the thread, as originally stated by the OP. What's so hard to understand about that? (this is the reply you requested)

climbing friend,

may we have a male only forum to discuss a womenz forum? This is surely what the internet needdddzzzzzzzzz

Nate Ball wrote:

I created a thread specifically asking for women's feedback and look what happened. Not only were men incapable of holding back their opinions (or in even understanding why it wasn't being solicited), but many were offended by the very idea that their opinions mattered less on this topic. Although it was created by a man, the thread would have been posted in a women-specific forum if there were one. Try re-reading that thread while ignoring all of the men's responses (including my own) and tell me it isn't infinitely more constructive as a result.

Bunch of dudes who just can't stand the idea that they might not have the loudest and most important voice in every place at every moment.

You all should just shut up for a while.

Why do all you guys feel the need to write unnecessary and immature comments? Why can't you just allow a comment/thread/sub-forum development go by and understand that you are not being belittled in the process? There are numerous communities out there, and I'm sure that you don't all try to comment and/or get involved with all of them. I don't post in mountain biking forums because I don't mountain bike. I don't pay attention to snow boarding forums because I don't snow board. So, if there is a women's sub-topic/sub-forum, there is no difference in that I could go about my day not specifically paying attention to it. Why can't you guys? The false-machismo is awful, and the ridiculous comments that suggest discussions would be only half as fruitful without men is even worse. It doesn't even make sense how this could upset you folks so much... 

(Yes, I am a guy responding, but I was passively watching this thread, happy to see the prospect of a women's sub-forum if that was wanted, but these asinine whimpering comments from the male peanut gallery are frustrating) 

Give the women a forum.
It's not rocket surgery.

FrankPS wrote:

You're not being honest, Nate. Your original post said mens' responses would be "appreciated," but you preferred women to respond. It was an ambiguous, poorly worded post. Then, you changed it to remove the option for men to post.

It’s funny when people give frank or anyone for that matter, flack for doing simple things like pointing out the facts and keeping others honest. Nate may have good intentions that many agree with. But he had shitty politics, manipulated the thread and the whole “white males” comment destroyed his credibility in the equality department.  Several males and females flamed him for his double standards.

JSH wrote: “And you, Frank, have been the most vocal person in a women's thread.  Congrats!  You win!”

JSH, this post ^^^ is not productive. You’re pointing a condescending finger and that is all!  Increasing the bickering and unnecessary chatter. The least a poster can do is be accurate and have their facts straight. Frank is self policing. 

It's interesting how some of the issues discussed (about the need to act on lewd comments/pictures, and now about a woman forum) is also very related to people not being so good at internets and general good behaviors. And also how that touches, I think, on some of the weaknesses of MP for its size.

If guys could resist boobs/butts jokes everything they see a bit of skin of a woman on a picture, I don't think the picture discussion would have happened - or if some moderations of those comments was already done.

I think it's a good idea, and think the idea of having things more widely moderated (e.g. not just Nick) is going to have to be implemented in some fashion. Stack Overflow is pretty good at having community-led moderation and it's been done elsewhere, too.

I don't think it's very fair to be lumping all guys together into one group and calling that group immature, sexist, etc.

There are a lot of guys on MP are only ever trying to have productive conversations and discussions on here. I think a lot of women here fall into this category.  There's also a lot of guys who mostly want to have productive discussions but also appreciate a good laugh or attempt to lighten the mood every now and then. I would like to think I fall into this group, and I think that the vast majority of remaining women fall into this group.

There's also a group of men who like to participate in productive discussions but also get a kick out of the more immature and potentially hurtful stuff and will join in if somebody else starts it. Then there's a group of men who like to participate in productive discussions but also like to start and participate in the more immature and potentially hurtful stuff. And finally we have the trolls who just want to start shit.

I'm sure I've overlooked other groups of people, in creating this dichotomy but that's beside the point. The point is that there are lot good men out there that some of y'all seem to want to disregard this fact and act like all men are represented by the people who make these lewd or sexist comments.

If that's what you want to do then I guess so be it, but please know that you are alienating a lot of good people by doing so. 

I love that a question about a women’s forum turned into a #NotAllMen fest. Never change MP.

actually, no, you can change that one.

is the new forum up yet??

Edit:

OLH, Thnx,  can you re-post  just the video? I cant seem to get the video to show up,

Michael Schneider wrote:

https://www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_violence_against_women_it_s_a_men_s_issue?utm_campaign=tedspread--a&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare

Guys? What do you think? 

Best, OLH

https://youtu.be/1l26UFQ06eQ

Nick Wilder wrote:

I'd be interested in hearing if women envision the Ladies-Only Forum:

1. Restricted to female members?  We'd presumably make a system where a woman asks to join and we grant permission for that account.  There would be female fakers, but easy to remove them if one becomes a problem.
2. Or open to all but heavily moderated when men butt in?  As the person who does the moderation, this sounds like a headache for me personally... and semi defeating the purpose of an exclusive place.

And a follow-up for scenario #1: what about displaying the Ladies-Only Forum topics on the Home Page and What's New?  Would only female members of the forum see the latest (which would severely restrict the visibility of the forum, resulting in very few members), or we would show the topic title to everyone (perhaps with a little "female" icon to indicate its status), but only female members could click through?

Female here. Regarding a new forum, it's okay by me, but I don't think I would use it any more than the other forums (I just don't use the MP forums that much).

If the proposed new forum disallows posts from everyone, then indeed new posts should be kept hidden from the "latest posts" list, otherwise you'll just wind up annoying people. Don't include these posts on the home page either; again, people will click through and be annoyed to be unable to comment and/or view the content. If you have a little "female" icon next to the post title, I suppose that would fix my objections. You could also give people an option to exclude seeing any titles for private forums like this - similar to excluding the "for sale" posts, as other people have mentioned.

1 - When you say "restricted to female members" do you mean "read" permissions or just "write" permissions will be restricted to females? If you meant even "read" permissions (i.e. only declared females can read the posts), it seems a bit much to me. However, I feel comfortable posting on the main forums at MP, despite being female, so a heavily sheltered female forum is not something that I'm looking for. The problem with this approach is that you won't get SEO for all the private forum posts. That's a major issue, if you ask me. It will be harder for women doing a search on such topics to find potentially valuable information, and possibly make it harder for them to become aware of the site.

2 - I think open to all is better. I understand why this would be a headache for you. However, is it not possible to give mod permissions to other admins? This has been a standard feature of all the forums I've participated in previously. If you are literally the only person who is able to delete forum posts, then I both feel sorry for you and tip my hat to you.

Obviously, all the above is all JMHO.

Hobo Greg wrote:

I'm still curious as to how anyone can justify this idea. You are asking for a space where one gender is not welcome, based on nothing more than the fact that said gender is different. Isn't that the exact sort of logic that men have been using for thousands of years to oppress women?

In most of the USA, the restrooms are spaces where one gender is not welcome. I think very few women will assert that they feel oppressed by the fact that they are not allowed to use the men's room (and most men are okay not being allowed into the ladies' room). See how that works? Women would like to use this space for their own privacy, I assume to discuss things that they would not feel comfortable discussing in public. Menstrual cups or whatever.

The reason that women want to be allowed into certain male-only spaces (like private clubs?) is because it is assumed (probably rightly) that women are not given equal access to the deal-making and power-brokering that goes on in such spaces. So when women are excluded from those spaces, they are excluded from economic opportunities. I guess they get pissed off about it.