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Requesting "Ladies Crag" forum

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
Ted Pinson wrote:

Why?  I guess I’m not seeing how this would be any different from posting on the main forums.  Would the other users not be able to view/post in topics in this forum?  Would it be invite only?  I’m not trying to argue against it, just having trouble seeing how it would work.

For example - you, as a man, might have a specific question, neither sexist nor misogynistic,  that you feel women are uniquely qualified to asnwer, you post it there.
Same for any contribution

The caveat - women moderators decide whether your contributions are sexist or misogynistic, not you.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
ValerieT wrote:

....The fact that someone says it would be for sock sizing just goes to show why women want a place so they can actually discuss climbing versus dealing with the condescending men. 

Sock sizing....yeah, that sounds a bit familiar.

I'm not sure about a female forum, honestly, because I think dad's can weigh in on taking a baby to a crag, for example. Menstrual cups? If someone jumps in with a stupid remark, just flag they're ass out of there. But, what if a guy is concerned because he is going into bear country with his lady partner? Embarrassed to ask her, perhaps? There's room for a respectful conversation. 

To me, a nice little room for the ladies may not be a good solution. 

All of us doing more to go toward the spirit of "don't be a jerk", including in a sock sizing thread, is much more the answer.

And yes, that means getting razzed. Done reasonably, that's okay. If it wasn't, I would have had to leave with the first question I posted, as a female new to the site.

Best, Helen

Luke Douglas · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 550

Maybe a ladies forum could be the impetus for more female participation in the forums at large. If women do not participate more nothing will change. There needs to be more posters like Mo Mo and WW not afraid to get their knuckles skinned up, to lead the way. If a ladies forum would facilitate that I think we all win.

Edit to add OLH as the type of posters we need to facilitate change.

La MoMoface · · Arvada, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 60
s.price wrote:

I have the same questions? 

I have been a moderator on the largest site in existence for distillation for years. None of the crap that ends up on MP has ever been tolerated on that site. Stupid childish behavior, constant trolling, repeated attacks on anyone for any reason insures the problem poster will end up being banned or locked out of posting. Works great.

How would the ladies crag forum deal with trolls? It would require a very heavy hand. Why should moderation not be equal across the site? That would be the best solution.

Just my opinion of course. 

Because I still want the freedom to be an asshole on every other part of the forum.

La MoMoface · · Arvada, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 60
Luke Douglas wrote:

Maybe a ladies forum could be the impetus for more female participation in the forums at large. If women do not participate more nothing will change. There needs to be more posters like Mo Mo and WW not afraid to get their knuckles skinned up, to lead the way. If a ladies forum would facilitate that I think we all win.

I'm super guilty of not piping up more, like in the 'photo's' thread...I joined in too late when it just became a junk show.  But, I think it's because I'm so fucking tired of having the same arguments over, and over again and having to defend being a woman. Shit gets old, and I'm really only here for teh dick jokes. Thus, my care factor in trying to 'save the world of mountain project' is pretty freaking low. 

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
La MoMoface · · Arvada, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 60
Aleks Zebastian wrote:

climbing friend,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfboOt1bJcA

That is a fact (I may have actually scared all of the girls with this when I was a scout camp counselor #imapartoftheproblem) 

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
La MoMoFace wrote:

That is a fact (I may have actually scared all of the girls with this when I was a scout camp counselor #imapartoftheproblem) 

climbing friend,

if you very much enjoy the "dick joke," one time many years passing as young boy, I am visiting public restroom urinal. As I stand there, my eyes happen upon the writing of the wall, "Why are you looking up here when the joke's in your hand?"

ho ho ho ha ha, hyah, hah!

La MoMoface · · Arvada, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 60
s.price wrote:

So that makes it ok for me to be an ass in the ladies forum?

I am sure your comment was tongue in cheek:) FWIW I fully support the idea of a ladies only forum as long as the field is kept level across the site.

Well, I think the rest of the site does pretty damn well at being the men's forum :P I'm one who actually doesn't see this site as too awful, at least I've never had anything wildly sexist or misogynistic directed at me. Must be my ugly mug. But, I do know others feel strongly unwelcome here. I guess I'm ok with uneven moderation so that the crusty community feel can remain, but there are still areas of the site where the BS won't be tolerated. Much like you wouldn't bring your dive bar language to church*.  I think a lot of the pushback on a women's forum is people thinking the rest of the site would change - I don't think it would. It would still be  there, and you don't like the idea of a women's room, its a beautiful thing - no one is forcing anyone to post there, or even look at it.

Here was the description for the last forum - I'm pretty sure 'safe space' wasn't the politicized term then as it is now:

*I guess I don't know what kind of bars or churches you go to...

cyclestupor · · Woodland Park, Colorado · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 91
La MoMoFace wrote:

Totally fair question. Here's a screen shot of the now defunct knob forum:

And then for me, personally, I have a month long backcountry trip next summer and I want to hear input on diva cups vs other brands vs thinx vs chemical menstrual treatment and how they all work on a wall, surrounded by dudes (I'm the only chick on the team).  I really don't feel like posting that question in the general forum here, and the rc.com thread on menstrual cups is form 2013 and there have been a zillion new brands since then. But I would feel comfortable posting it in a women's forum.

Edited to add - genuine advice from the wangs was not unwelcome. Lots of 'My wife did...she uses...' etc.

Awesome.  Thanks for responding.  Judging from that screenshot, a woman forum does indeed seem quite useful.  Good to hear that constructive input from guys is welcome on that forum.  If I were a member of that forum I would probably read and respond to some of the threads about climbing w. kids.

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

Another vote here for a Ladies-Only Forum

.... that is obviously identified as such and heavily moderated. No men.

While I was contrary to that other thread's women-only mandate (and still am), the life of those 16+ pages over there surely illustrated how many males here haven't yet grown up into the 21st century ... or maybe just are a bit rough around the edges.  Why subject half the population to any of that stuff when one is seeking gender-specific experiences.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
La MoMoFace wrote:

I'm super guilty of not piping up more, like in the 'photo's' thread...I joined in too late when it just became a junk show.  But, I think it's because I'm so fucking tired of having the same arguments over, and over again and having to defend being a woman. Shit gets old, and I'm really only here for teh dick jokes. Thus, my care factor in trying to 'save the world of mountain project' is pretty freaking low. 

See, that's it, exactly. YOU shouldn't have to be "fighting" this fight. My generation, and the ladies upstream, have been at it for decades, and gents too, of course. Because of that? I feel I do have an obligation to take some hits. Its part of what being an "elder" should mean, in the best sense of the word. 28 year olds (of any gender) seeing 60 year olds standing up for anything, is how it should be, until that little bit of unfairness is righted.

Best, Helen

P.S. I also enjoy rolling in the mud, when it is egalitarian, respectful, and entertaining. Wordsmiths correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that's called friendship.

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812
vwall wrote:

 I'd say there needs to be fewer posters who shout down anyone they see as a threat to their good ol' "non-PC" culture. It seems our focus should stay on "stop being a jerk" rather than "you just have to stand up to the jerks!"

I suspect Luke would agree with that - not that I know him at all (edit to add: or maybe not).

Change (e.g., recognition of the scope of the problem) is slow for my gender (and me), but it is happening.

Luke Douglas · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 550
vwall wrote:

Why do there need to be more posters who are not afraid to get their knuckles skinned up? Especially when many of us are already navigating a world that skins up our knuckles whether we put ourselves out there or not? People are aware of the problem, as you indicate by acknowledging that female users are likely to be bullied (get their knuckles skinned up) on this site for speaking out. This argument I see repeatedly puts the responsibility for change on the wrong folks. I'd say there needs to be fewer posters who shout down anyone they see as a threat to their good ol' "non-PC" culture. It seems our focus should stay on "stop being a jerk" rather than "stand up to the jerks!"

In my experience jeks do not change by asking. It also seems as if more than a few males are willing to skin their knuckles up with you.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
Luke Douglas wrote:

In my experience jeks do not change by asking. It also seems as if more than a few males are willing to skin their knuckles up with you.

Have you asked a "jerk" directly? I have, via pm. And received replies back. Some posts deleted, even. 

Should I have to do that? No. But it treats the other the way I would wish to be treated.

And besides that, surprise, surprise, some of these "jerks" are friends now.

Best, Helen

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812
Luke Douglas wrote:

In my experience jeks do not change by asking. 

Don't make it a request then.  Right? 

Edit: I think I see what you are saying.  But I think it needs to come from the position of a norm for all and not gender specific.  To put it in your words, what we need are more males who understand and will also get their knuckles skinned up over it alongside females who are pushing in the same direction.

Anyway, I'm still for the heavily moderated Ladies-Only Forum.

Luke Douglas · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 550
Old lady H wrote:

Have you asked a "jerk" directly? I have, via pm. And received replies back. Some posts deleted, even. 

Should I have to do that? No. But it treats the other the way I would wish to be treated.

And besides that, surprise, surprise, some of these "jerks" are friends now.

Best, Helen

  • You must run into nicer jerks than I. 
La MoMoface · · Arvada, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 60

There's calling someone out for being a jerk, but often they're not actually being a jerk. If someone is saying something idiotic, it's often not enough to just say 'hey dude/tte, not cool.' You typically end up having to engage, defend, have a brain aneurysm and cry into your good scotch. I think that's what I'm tired of. It's most often not a black and white rule violation , it's a tone.

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812
La MoMoFace wrote:

There's calling someone out for being a jerk, but often they're not actually being a jerk.

Yes. 

I had been writing something else.  But, yes, the majority of males do not really understand while only needing a nudge here and there towards understanding.

vwall · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 5
La MoMoFace wrote:

There's calling someone out for being a jerk, but often they're not actually being a jerk. If someone is saying something idiotic, it's often not enough to just say 'hey dude/tte, not cool.' You typically end up having to engage, defend, have a brain aneurysm and cry into your good scotch. I think that's what I'm tired of. It's most often not a black and white rule violation , it's a tone.

Amen, MoMo. This is what I was getting at too - I usually don't engage in these discussion on MP because I already do it in my real life and it's exhausting. The responsibility should not be primarily on women to put themselves out there at the risk of being bullied in order for change to happen. Ideally the pressure to be respectful would get strong enough that people can put themselves out there without getting their knuckles skinned. But I am certainly grateful to all the men and women, including on this thread, who are willing to say something and work toward change! I'm with Luke, as long we know it has to be men and women together engaging in respectful discussions, not just women having to be educators while tomatoes are thrown at them. We also miss out on a lot of potentially useful information/resources/questions by fostering an environment where only the "roughest and toughest" want to participate.

It would be nice if this could happen in the general MP forums, but I haven't seen this happen in my 5 years as a user, so until that shift happens a ladies forum could be a good thing to try out. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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