Access Fund Will Sue Federal Government to Defend Bears Ears National Monument

Why hasn't Access Fund sued the government / Forest Service after Williamson rock near LA has been closed for over 10 years?

other wrote:

Why hasn't Access Fund sued the government / Forest Service after Williamson rock near LA has been closed for over 10 years?

Because there's not point in bringing suit if you don't have a strong enough case?

https://www.accessfund.org/news-and-events/news/progress-on-southern-californias-williamson-rock-closure

Did you get involved at all?

https://www.change.org/p/u-s-fish-and-wildlife-service-reopen-williamson-rock

There was never any evidence presented that frogs at Williamson were killed or endangered. Or that people killed frogs there. Or that climbing there had any negative environmental impact. There is zero proof of an endangered species being hurt at Williamson Rock. The Forest Service rolled over to environmental extremist groups. The Access Fund also abandoned its mission to preserve access.

I and countless other people were told to email, call and write letters for years by AF, friends of Williamson and Allied Climbers of San Diego. We all did so. We attended meetings. We donated money. Those years of effort produced exactly zero results.

Marc801 C wrote:

Because there's not point in bringing suit if you don't have a strong enough case?

https://www.accessfund.org/news-and-events/news/progress-on-southern-californias-williamson-rock-closure

Did you get involved at all?

https://www.change.org/p/u-s-fish-and-wildlife-service-reopen-williamson-rock

Marc, the press release you posted from 9 months ago is impotent and meaningless. So are petitions. Legal actions are meaningful.

Marc, from your Change.org petition "The reason given for this "Temporary" closure was a sighting of the endangered Mountain Yellow-Legged Frog  a 1000 feet down stream of this popular rock climbing area nestled high in the Angeles National Forest.

The real reason for the closure was the Federal Government bowing to lawsuits threatened and brought by special interest groups.

In the proceeding 12 years no action has been taken by any of the involved agencies other than to write report after report of environmental assessments."

A lot of climber's don't give to the Access Fund. They may give to local groups that may actual accomplish things other then press releases. That hasn't worked with Williamson though.

other wrote:

They may give to local groups that may actual accomplish things other then press releases. That hasn't worked with Williamson though.

Just because the results at your local area weren't what you had hoped for doesn't mean they haven't had numerous successes elsewhere. Based on your comment it doesnt sound like you've even taken the time to read the numerous 'Press Releases' this year regarding preserving or opening access at many many areas across the nation.  Maybe take some time to do that...

Sorry the results in your area haven't been what you want but blaming the Access Fund for Govt bureaucracy doesnt seem logical... at least to me. No person or organization can be 100% successful and that sure seems like an unreasonable expectation.

Press releases devoid of action are just that-empty promises or excuses. Platitudes are meaningless without results.

Meanwhile the request for money is never ending...

Morgan Patterson wrote:

Just because the results at your local area weren't what you had hoped for doesn't mean they haven't had numerous successes elsewhere. Based on your comment it doesnt sound like you've even taken the time to read the numerous 'Press Releases' this year regarding preserving or opening access at many many areas across the nation.  Maybe take some time to do that...

Sorry the results in your area haven't been what you want but blaming the Access Fund for Govt bureaucracy doesnt seem logical... at least to me. No person or organization can be 100% successful and that sure seems like an unreasonable expectation.

Every taxpayer supports every govt agency through taxes and misc other fees.

The "adventure pass" scam was found to be unlawful and optional after suits. The money went to hiring people to collect the fees and ticket non compliers. It was a parking pass. Nothing went to additional services for those folks parking.

the forest service mission is timber and other sales. It's not a recreation agency. Witness the debacle at Williamson rock.

JKeller wrote:

other also wrote:

“Ive never bought an "adventure" pass anywhere since they began 10+ years ago. Ive never got a ticket. My understanding is that the ticket is really a warning and action is only taken on repeat ticket getters. Also I've read that a judge has ruled they are illegal and/or unenforceable. Anyone get a ticket and where?”

You are literally saying you neither support the Access Fund nor the Forest Service, both of which are working towards reaching an middle ground with the environmental groups in order to reopen your crag.  You’re clearly missing your role here.  Please consider actually paying the Forest Service fees, and supporting the Access Fund so people who are ACTUALLY involved can manage your crag for you.

other wrote:

A lot of climber's don't give to the Access Fund. They may give to local groups that may actual accomplish things other then press releases. That hasn't worked with Williamson though.

Give that some thought for a moment.
If every climber gave $1 to the Access Fund per year, their budget would increase... massively.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Now, let's say you have a total budget of about $2M and you were paying several full time trail crews, running a land acquisition organization, and a charity.
Now... what are your priorities?  You do have to choose, in part based on impact, in part based on probability.

How much did you give the AF last year?

Also, FYI, I know that when I give to teh Access  Fund, that a high percentage of what I give them goes directly to the Local Cli,ming prganization.  In my case, that would be the BCC.
I know this is happening because it is stated policy, because I was a board member on the BCC since it's inception until about a year ago, and because the last 2x I sent large checks, I got a letter signed by the BCC chairman back.
I also know that the Access Fund runs the HR/Pay functions for the BCC's full time paid trail crew for us, gratis.  (Refer to that thing about the $2M budget again.)

Whats BCC?

The first mission of a bureaucracy is to maintain and increase the bureaucracy. 

The only way to make public land more accessible is by removing access? Pardon me while I don't contribute to Access Fund.

other wrote:

Whats BCC?

I assumed it's some kind of climbers coalition, but searching for BCC turns up a lot of irrelevant stuff. Searching for 'BCC climbers coalition' gave a number of relevant hits:

Boulder Climbing Community <---- since Tony B lists "around Boulder" as his location, I'm guessing this one

http://boulderclimbers.org/

Three others are:

Bower Climbing Coalition

Bighorn Climbers' Coalition

Boone Climbers Coalition

other wrote:

Press releases devoid of action are just that-empty promises or excuses. Platitudes are meaningless without results.

Meanwhile the request for money is never ending...

What are you talking about??? You are absolutely clueless... I'm sorry but just because you say something over and over it doesn't make it true. 

You know saying, better to have them think you're and idiot than to open your mouth and have them know you're an idiot? Educate yourself stop being a mindless troll please!

Here's 8 news announcements from Q4 of last year. All of these are about Access Fund and their work partnering with local climbing organizations with REAL results.  

1. Central Appalachia Climbers Coalition Acquire the AVP Boulders

2. Climbing Access Restored at New Hampshire’s Band M Ledge!

3. RRGCC Pays Off Miller Fork

4. Access Fund-Jeep Conservation Team Wraps Up 2017 Tour

5. Chattanooga’s Old Wauhatchie Pike Boulders Now Open

6. Madrone Wall Opens After Twenty Years

7. $10,000 in Grants Awarded to Replace Aging Bolts

8. New Study Shows Climbers Are Big Contributors to Western North Carolina Economy

https://www.accessfund.org/news-and-events/news

The requests for money are never ending because they are taking on bigger and bigger challenges as they succeed elsewhere. The forces they are working against are also getting more and more powerful as industry money pours into efforts to develop climbing lands. This is so basic and pervasive in this day and age I have a hard time at this point believe you're anything other than a troll who should just cawl back under your bridge of ignorance. 

Or maybe are you just a Trump supporter who doesn't like FACTS and REALITY and that's the real issue?

Ray Pinpillage wrote:

The first mission of a bureaucracy is to maintain and increase the bureaucracy. 

The only way to make public land more accessible is by removing access? Pardon me while I don't contribute to Access Fund.

Not at all... in reality the first mission or philosophical foundation of a 'governmen't is to regulate the tragedy of the commons. 

Where do you get the idea that Access Fund is removing access? Again... take a look at their news page and you can quite clearly see, there are many many areas that are opening because of their work. 

Morgan Patterson wrote:

Not at all... in reality the first mission or philosophical foundation of a 'governmen't is to regulate the tragedy of the commons. 

Where do you get the idea that Access Fund is removing access? Again... take a look at their news page and you can quite clearly see, there are many many areas that are opening because of their work. 

I want to live in your world, it sounds nice, albeit very naive. The Adventure Pass is a perfect example of the bureaucracy maintaining and increasing itself. 

Turning Bear Ears into a national monument restricted access, it did not preserve or improve it. If Access Fund promoted the Bear Ears national monument effort then it did not work to support it's own charter. The Bear Ears National Monument effort was a real clown show from the start but it did shine a light on exactly who is a partisan-politics hack. I got a good chuckle at "The President Stole Your Land" social media campaign, now I know who isn't capable of critical thought. 

other wrote:

Every taxpayer supports every govt agency through taxes and misc other fees.

The "adventure pass" scam was found to be unlawful and optional after suits. The money went to hiring people to collect the fees and ticket non compliers. It was a parking pass. Nothing went to additional services for those folks parking.

the forest service mission is timber and other sales. It's not a recreation agency. Witness the debacle at Williamson rock.

While I agree with you about the Forest Service's mission (though I don't believe that's every been in dispute), the federal decision relating to the Adventure Pass did not determine it to be a "scam".  Rather, the court concluded that it could only be charged for areas where the Forest Service actually provides a service, such as a campground or other facilities are located.  It could not be assessed for someone who parks along the road where there are no services. 

Ray Pinpillage wrote:

I want to live in your world, it sounds nice, albeit very naive. The Adventure Pass is a perfect example of the bureaucracy maintaining and increasing itself. 

Turning Bear Ears into a national monument restricted access, it did not preserve or improve it. If Access Fund promoted the Bear Ears national monument effort then it did not work to support it's own charter. The Bear Ears National Monument effort was a real clown show from the start but it did shine a light on exactly who is a partisan-politics hack. I got a good chuckle at "The President Stole Your Land" social media campaign, now I know who isn't capable of critical thought. 

To side step the politics of BE for a moment... do you not agree they have been a successful organization in preserving access and creating access for climbers?

  I have not studied the BE issues in depth but I fail to see how giving these areas designations as National Monuments and preventing them from industrial exploration, limits your access. Becuase I'm pretty sure everyone else sees this as a handout to the extraction industry who want to develop these areas. From everything I've seen and read the removing of these protections threatens many climbing areas. Also you've got a weak argument using one place as an example to judge the AF doesnt seem logical nor accurate way to draw a conclusion. Need help with some other very positive examples? Look at my last post recapping Q4 2017...

Bear Ears Questions for you if you're feeling like some critical thinking:

1. In how many ways does the NM status significantly restrict access for you?

2. How does the NM not preserve land, isn't that the stated purpose of a NM? (And the well they build a road and some bathrooms to encourage people to visit the area doesnt work.) 

3. What other organization do you know that secures access nationally for climbers and has grant programs, is a registered land trust, and provides loans to LCO to purchase climbing areas?

And lastly, I speak of the govt from an academic background... as in the principles of why we need and have govt. The maintaining or rather increasing itself is a function of the individual within the govt and is not the basis of govt which you stated earlier. So naive no... just overly analytical of baseless statements.

Fat Dad wrote:

While I agree with you about the Forest Service's mission (though I don't believe that's every been in dispute), the federal decision relating to the Adventure Pass did not determine it to be a "scam".  Rather, the court concluded that it could only be charged for areas where the Forest Service actually provides a service, such as a campground or other facilities are located.  It could not be assessed for someone who parks along the road where there are no services. 

Which was why the Forest Service then began dragging porta potties and park tables to trail heads. It was never about improving access, experience, service, or (gasp) environmental protection, it was a revenue generating scheme by a government agency. Arguably, the work the Forest Service did in some places was worse on the environment than before it realized revenue was going to suffer after the 9th Circuit decision.

Morgan Patterson wrote:

To side step the politics of BE for a moment... do you not agree they have been a successful organization in preserving access and creating access for climbers?

  I have not studied the BE issues in depth but I fail to see how giving these areas designations as National Monuments and preventing them from industrial exploration, limits your access. From what I see the removing of these protections threatens many climbing areas. Lastly you've got a weak argument. Using one place as an example to judge a vast array of successes doesn't seem logical nor accurate way to judge an organization. Need help with some positive examples? Look at my last post recapping Q4 2017... Not much to argue with there.

Bear Ears Questions:

1. How does the NM status significantly restrict access FOR YOU?

2. How does the NM not preserve land, isnt that the stated purpose of a NM? 

And lastly, I speak of the govt from an academic background... as in the principles of why we need and have govt. The maintaining or rather increasing itself is a function of the individual within the govt and is not the basis of govt which you stated earlier. So naive no... just overly analytical of baseless statements.

BE was not in jeopardy of O&G or mineral exploration since there isn't any there to speak of. There are a lot of drilling and mining sites in Utah, BE was not one of them.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, NM status would have restricted motorized offroad access as well as potentially restrict some climbing and camping activities at a later date. National Monuments are not generally very friendly to climbing, camping, hunting, offroading, etc. Also as has already been mentioned, there are more stakeholders in this discussion than just climbers, left leaning enviro-corporations, and their supporters. Access means access for all, not just some.