Advice on entry level ropes and draws

Mountain Rookie wrote:

... biners that have been dropped with invisible cracks to save a few bucks...

Perhaps you shouldn't give advice if you don't know what you're talking about.

Sierra Trdg Post has had a $149 Edelrid Racer 70m rope for a while now.  See if it's still there. I have the 60m version of the same rope and it's a good workhorse.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I second this. I use a cheapo REI duffel for this and while it isn't as comfortable to carry or easy to pack rope into as the rope bag I got for my 70m, it gets the job done.

I bought a nice rope bag but use a piece of nylon from an old tent as tarp instead . Rope bags are too heavy for me. 

Mountain Rookie wrote:

And risk getting a rope that was stored around car batteries and biners that have been dropped with invisible cracks to save a few bucks... Maybe the chances of getting that unlucky are slim, but how much is your peace of mind worth?

Microfractures only happen with steel bro.....aluminum does not work like that.

Al Pine wrote:

Dry treatments are worth the $. Inevitably you'll get caught in the rain mid pitch unless you climb in an arid climate.

If you just get caught in a light rain then it likely is not going to soak your rope near enough to affect performance.  If you get caught in a heavy rain mid pitch it's probably best to get lowered ASAP and seek shelter.  Honestly though I just lower even in a light rain unless I'm already pretty run out (only happened to me once so far), wet rock just isn't that fun on lead.

Marc801 C wrote:

Perhaps you shouldn't give advice if you don't know what you're talking about.

Oh I was pretty damn confident I knew what I was talking about. I read Freedom of the Hills, which advises to retire dropped biners. I've taken a climbing course with a local alpine club, several of their experienced instructors advised to retire dropped gear. (You drop one of their aluminium belay devices, they make you pay for it.)

Now I did my research and found some proof of this being a myth, so a good thing happened here: I was corrected and learned something new. Participating in forums as a rookie is productive, I know  OLH would agree with me. :D

Mountain Rookie wrote:

Oh I was pretty damn confident I knew what I was talking about. I read Freedom of the Hills, which advises to retire dropped biners. I've taken a climbing course with a local alpine club, several of their experienced instructors advised to retire dropped gear. (You drop one of their aluminium belay devices, they make you pay for it.)

Now I did my research and found some proof of this being a myth, so a good thing happened here: I was corrected and learned something new. Participating in forums as a rookie is productive, I know  OLH would agree with me. :D

I started that  - You Drop you bought it - Scam in '87 while guiding for Mnt Skills  but when the owner/ headguide/arse found out I was canned forth with, But the Practice was bloody brilliant for children. And clearly caught on when Mnt Skills moved to Red Rocks  Nevada 

Christopher Smith wrote:

Microfractures only happen with steel bro.....aluminum does not work like that.

Interestingly enough, neither does steel.

Ken Noyce wrote:

Interestingly enough, neither does steel.

Any links on this by chance?  Amazing how misinfo can spread if this is true.

Christopher Smith wrote:

Any links on this by chance?  Amazing how misinfo can spread if this is true.

No time to dig up links, but most steel is very ductile which means that it will deform, not crack, there are certain (very rare) types of high strength steel where they might develop cracks, but it certainly wouldn't happen with the typical types of steel that most people would be familiar with.

research the physics/mechanics of how a rope works when being used to catch a fall and how rope testing is done to produce the technical stats associated with them.  Then take that knowledge to help guide your purchase of a durable product (my opinion - between 11 and 10mm diameter), because it is likely you are going to be giving it a workout when you are just starting out.

I'm another voice for a Mammut rope. I think my 60M Mammut infinity was something like $120 with a rope bag. Also a big fan of the cheap Madrock Concord Quick draws. I recently replaced all 18 of my draws for about $135, total.  That's $7.50 per draw. Buy at least 12. 

ANYONE wanting cheap, nice draws?

mad Rock has their angler draws on sale for $9 and $10 for 4/6 inch in-store. 

I can can grab some for people who want. I’ll be heading by later this week I think 

Anyone telling you to spend top dollar is an idiot.

Modern ropes never, ever break. They get cut by edges (nothing to do with whether the ropes is old, new, $100 or $1000). Climber error.

Modern Carabiners never, ever break. The get fractured by edges or when the gate might be opened by one. (nothing to do with whether the 'biner is $3 or $30). Climber error.

Modern Harnesses don't break. They do get worn out and used too long. Climber Error.

Basically save your money and buy used stuff. Most things you invest in now you will refine over years and replace as you are able.

$100 ~10mm x 60m rope. Never buy dry for rock climbing.

Madrock draws. 

Used Camalots and Stoppers.

BD Momentum/Petzl Corax, your pick.

Tie up some shoulder length slings.

Buncha free 'biners.

Go Climbing.

Vastly better shit than these guys had to put up a world standard route for their time.

bernard wolfe wrote:

research the physics/mechanics of how a rope works when being used to catch a fall and how rope testing is done to produce the technical stats associated with them.  Then take that knowledge to help guide your purchase of a durable product (my opinion - between 11 and 10mm diameter), because it is likely you are going to be giving it a workout when you are just starting out.

Welcome to current year.  Skinnier ropes have gotten ALOT more durable in the last few years.  I have a buddy with a 9.2 that has lasted him over a year on super big crystal rope killing granite taking repeated lead falls on a 13a project of his.  It's barely even fuzzed in that time.  Granted those durable skinny ropes are usually a wee bit pricey though.

Christopher Smith wrote:

Welcome to current year.  Skinnier ropes have gotten ALOT more durable in the last few years.  I have a buddy with a 9.2 that has lasted him over a year on super big crystal rope killing granite taking repeated lead falls on a 13a project of his.  It's barely even fuzzed in that time.  Granted those durable skinny ropes are usually a wee bit pricey though.

Be advised that skinnier ropes do cut more easily despite holding up well for sport climbing (where running over edges is comparatively rare). This is not a trivial consideration for anyone that will use the rope just starting out.

King Tut wrote:

Be advised that skinnier ropes do cut more easily despite holding up well for sport climbing (where running over edges is comparatively rare). This is not a trivial consideration for anyone that will use the rope just starting out.

Can you cite sources or provide evidence for rope sheath designed and manufactured in the last five years? 

Mark Says wrote:

Can you cite sources or provide evidence for rope sheath designed and manufactured in the last five years? 

http://rockandice.com/climb-safe/climb-safe-the-skinny-on-super-light-ropes/

From the article 5/17:

"....Despite the weight savings offered by the new ropes, they “Aren’t for everybody,” says Scott Newell of Blue Water Ropes. “The ropes have a lower safety margin.”...

"....Although there is no data to support it, and there is no industry standard test to confirm the theory, anecdotal evidence tells us that thinner ropes are more susceptible to abrasion and cutting. For instance, we know from real world experience that 9mm double ropes wear faster and cut more easily than fatter cords. And, while the super-light ropes we tested at Rock and Ice both performed brilliantly, they showed marked wear after a handful of outings."

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Dude if you think newer skinnier ropes hold up to edges better the onus is on YOU to provide the data before you tell some one to take additional risk, not me, the one urging them to be safer.

Sorry, my patience is wearing out at the moment.

Mark Says wrote:

Can you cite sources or provide evidence for rope sheath designed and manufactured in the last five years? 

I don't know if you understand how single ropes remain classified as single ropes despite how skinny they are.  

As a rope decreases in diameter, the amount of sheath thickness reduces because that is really the only material you can take away; the core needs to remain the same to keep the rope classification.  With less sheath, the rope also get way more stretched since there is less static material (sheath) in the rope.  Granted ropes are way safer than they were years ago but to get a rope skinnier, the design criteria remains the same.

King Tut wrote:

http://rockandice.com/climb-safe/climb-safe-the-skinny-on-super-light-ropes/

From the article 5/17:

"....Despite the weight savings offered by the new ropes, they “Aren’t for everybody,” says Scott Newell of Blue Water Ropes. “The ropes have a lower safety margin.”...

"....Although there is no data to support it, and there is no industry standard test to confirm the theory, anecdotal evidence tells us that thinner ropes are more susceptible to abrasion and cutting. For instance, we know from real world experience that 9mm double ropes wear faster and cut more easily than fatter cords. And, while the super-light ropes we tested at Rock and Ice both performed brilliantly, they showed marked wear after a handful of outings."

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Dude if you think newer skinnier ropes hold up to edges better the onus is on YOU to provide the data before you tell some one to take additional risk, not me, the one urging them to be safer.

Sorry, my patience is wearing out at the moment.

I didn't tell anyone anything, I believe you were the one who made the claim. How is the onus on me to prove what you're saying?