When climbers converge on upper Anthill in Eldorado Canyon...

Ryan Marsters wrote:

IMPRESSIVE. Two pages with some HEATED discussion over a slight BREACH of climbing etiquette and courtesy on a MODERATE Eldo route on a WEEKEND.

I'm assuming capitalization makes my opinions more valid. If I got miffed over every little non-injury-risk courtesy affront in the Front Range weekend cragging scene, well, I probably wouldn't be a very enjoyable cragging partner at all. 

Hey, you haven't found that bold or italic button yet? Just combine the three with some !!! and you'll be UNBEATABLE!!

Ryan - Funny! 

Patrik - I don't know. I just read through the recent responses. Actually last night several friends, all long time Eldo climbers, who read all this said my 'mea culpa' wasn't necessary, and there was no obvious right or wrong party here. (As several of the above posters also said.) And in those situations (gray ones) the party who gets there first decides it; just the facts on the 'ground'.

I'll still stick by it (my mea culpa), but you seem to now be making additional leaps. And no I'm not a lawyer. Though my accomplished lawyer friend thinks I didn't do anything wrong and the other party was being ridiculous to get so worked up about it.

RE: "...because you wanted to merge into their line."

The crux of the matter, right? Who's line was it? According to the guidebook I was actually on the route (Anthill) and you could say they merged into my line. I know, I know - most people do Touch n Go to Anthill Direct, and share that pitch of Anthill. But this notion (of yours) that Anthill to Anthill Direct (sharing the first couple of pitches of Pseudo Sidetracks) is obscure and never done, is not true. Maybe not among your friends. It's not done as often, but I know a number of older climbers who do that line at least occasionally. It's a technically easy but still complicated and interesting way for experienced climbers to get high on Redgarten. 

So, a question: If the original Anthill was done as often as Anthill Direct, what would your opinion be then? Am I still in the wrong? 

If this other lower party was following right behind the party in front (on Anthill Direct), and being delayed by them, then you could argue (and I'd probably agree) that since I'm merging between them I'm still in the wrong. But as I said above and in the OP, the following party was far enough below where it wasn't obvious (to me at the time anyway) that they were delayed by the above party or in any way connected. To me it felt like routes converged and I was well ahead so I continued on. Contrary to what you seem to believe, everything we know now wasn't obvious at the time. Someone mentioned about 'responsible distance' but it was a lot farther apart than that.

What if Anthill was actually done a lot more often than Anthill Direct? I assume in that situation you would say I would get the priority then? Or what if Anthill was done 25% as often as Anthill Direct, what about then?

How about if that lower leader was still at the lower belay and hadn't left yet? Am I still in the wrong merging? I don't know but it didn't seem like he was far from his belayer in the second or two I had visual contact with him. There seems to be this sense from you that I barged in and physically elbowed the guy out of the way or something, but he was far below at the time and not even close.

Anyway. Still seems pretty gray to me. 

Thanks George. I agree. Though I think some (Patrik surely) will say we weren't 'committed' at that time and could have easily backtracked. We could have backtracked. Though down climbing runout terrain on that loose Eldo band (that anyone familiar with the park knows about), even if technically easy, is rarely ideal.

And we did offer the party to pass us for the final pitch. But they were apparently too angry by that point to take us up on it.

Ryan Marsters wrote:

IMPRESSIVE HEATED BREACH MODERATE WEEKEND.

Damn. And here I thought you were trying to send a secret message or something.

Be sure to drink your Ovaltine.

Rob White wrote:

So, a question: If the original Anthill was done as often as Anthill Direct, what would your opinion be then? Am I still in the wrong? 

As I said in an earlier post:

Patrik wrote: But your comment about the complete line Anthill as a separate line crossing and sharing half a pitch with Anthill Direct is an interesting observation. I don't know how I would think trying to figure out if the OP "have the right" to merge as he did if he truly was on Anthill. I know what I would have done (and can explain why I would do so), but I'm also fairly sure I wouldn't be capable of suggesting others what to do or being unhappy about whatever choice they make.

So, let's see ... I have moved 20ft up and left from my belayer. I see a leader 40ft below me and a follower 15ft above both on Anthill Direct.
I can go left and share a belay ledge with someone who is pissed off at me. He may or may not be composed enough to hide it.
Or I can down scramble 20ft right back to my belayer and continue from there.
What to do?
As part of the human breed, I'm a selfish creature. I would like to think myself somewhere average on the selfish scale.
My selfish choice of maximizing ...

Rob White wrote: We were just trying to have a fun day in Eldo.

... tells me to go right.

What I am entitled to or what I think I am entitled to or what the climbing community think I am entitled to is not part of my decision. It is only my pure selfishness of having a good day in Eldo and staying away from making people pissed off at me.

Note carefully though: I wouldn't be capable of suggesting others what to do or being unhappy about whatever choice they make.

Ryan Marsters wrote:

IMPRESSIVE HEATED, BREACH MODERATE WEEKEND.

Genius! If this were a newspaper...  

Mod's, can we change the name of the thread to that?

Patrik wrote:

I can go left and share a belay ledge with someone who is pissed off at me. He may or may not be composed enough to hide it.

 Just because someone was pissed off does not make  him right and someone else wrong. 

I suspect the pissed off party was not that experienced. Otherwise they would've been able to deal a lot better.

@ Patrik-

Mostly just curious, as I don't visit Eldo much.

On the wall in question, there are many established routes, established link-ups and even more potential link-ups.

Why does a party on an established climb have priority over a party on a link-up?

Why wouldn't it just be first come first served?

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Why does a party on an established climb have priority over a party on a link-up?

Why wouldn't it just be first come first served?

What if it's a route you rappel in or can start at a half way point? Is it first come first served from the bottom of the route or from whichever pitch you decide to start climbing? Hard & fast rules are never adequate all the time. It's not always important who's in the right; people all have to learn how to play nicely.

The double-edge sword of climbing is rooted in anarchy – no rules, no lanes, first party gets first pickins. To suggest that climbers remain on the route on which they started is pure folly. Get there first and link at will.

The higher party, the first to arrive (Rob) is free to climb whatever. Establishing courteous communication is always a good policy, thus leading to an understanding at the very least and hopefully an agreement, but not necessarily.

‘Stranded leader’ (5.6 terrain on 5.9 route? sounds dramatic) suggesting the upper guy is an ass, with a partner (belaying) below in a head-tearing mood? Rude bastards get no quarter. (Once saw a guy treated to moist holds and a golden shower from quite a distance after mouthing-off.)

Equally important to respectfully working-out an understanding is to not subject your neighbors on the Naked Edge, Centaur, top of Touch N’ Go and Anthill Direct (above and below) to loud outbursts.

I call this the Boulder problem...everybodies gotta take it alittle less personally there.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

@ Patrik-

Why does a party on an established climb have priority over a party on a link-up?

Why wouldn't it just be first come first served?

I was naive enough to believe that "first come, first serve" was valid for a complete route, not on its individual pitches. Anyone who wants to merge into a route should do so (my belief) either without seriously interrupting an approaching (from below) party or by permission from them. This is what I have experienced everywhere in my climbing "career". Of course, for "time critical" routes (big walls, alpine, etc), I can see that anything goes. But for 2-6 pitch routes on a sunny day in Eldo?

Imagine the following scenario that is perfectly valid if "first come, first serve" works on individual pitches, variations, and linkups: 

I start up the regular 5.9 start of Yellow Spur in Eldo. As I struggle with the initial moves, someone else grabs the 10b variation on the left (which is listed in Levin's book as Original start, 273b) . The leader of the team on the left plans and succeeds to hit the roof crux before me and moves along to the first belay spot and I am "stranded" in the middle of the traverse as the other team's follower hangs on the crux roof. Finally, he pulls the roof and I can move up to share the first belay spot. The leader of the other team decides to link up the next two pitches, which takes him quite some time, so my party is hanging out for a while. Suddenly, a third party starts at the base and quickly comes up and shares our somewhat crowded belay spot. Before the first party's follower leaves the belay spot, the third team starts up the variation 2nd pitch on the right (route 273d) that I was unaware of and of course they didn't tell me about. So, I start to lead after the first party's follower and can only do one short pitch, since the third party leader is linking into the regular third pitch. So, the third party has now finally completely passed us and everything is peaceful as I start up the third pitch. But, wouldn't you know?, party #4 hikes in from the left on Red Ledge, so once again a little tea break for my party. I am stupid enough to just hang out at the good belay spot instead of moving it 25ft to the right. Just as the follower of the fourth party leaves, party #5 pops around the corner from the Ruper ledge on the right. ... and so on ... after 7h I am finally at the belay spot at the start of the crux pitch putting my follower on belay. Suddenly, someone raps in to do the crux pitch itself ... etc ...

Why do people not do this if anarchy is the suggested "rule" (as ABB indicate)? 

Even in a crowded place like Eldo, I don't see these things happening. As I mentioned earlier, I have experienced a "cutting off" incident in Eldo only once in 13 years (and maybe 500 Eldo days) and that was by a non-local. On the other hand, I rarely hang out in the Bastille area on weekends, so maybe that's where it is all happening? I see a lot of courtesy and communication how to share routes (sorry to disappoint you, Marc801 C). Even the super messy Rewritten area is rarely (if ever?) uncivilized even though everyone and his grandmother absolutely wants to get on Rebuffat's. 

Greg D wrote: Just because someone was pissed off does not make  him right and someone else wrong.

Neither did I say or indicate that the pissed off guy is necessarily correct. From local knowledge of that particular area, I know he is much more likely pissed off than happy to share "my" pitch/belay in that spot. Even if I have the "right of way" merging in from the right in that spot, it is so much simpler for me to choose an alternative (going back right). The lower guy has "no" alternatives. Yes, I could force him to break it into the "unusual guidebook pitches", but I would assume he has no knowledge of how to move into route 74/54 (from pic on previous page), route 78 (10bR, 5.8X), or 79f (5.8R) that are "never" done (except when I fool around on 74). 

Patrik wrote:

Imagine the following scenario that is perfectly valid if "first come, first serve" works on individual pitches, variations, and linkups: 

I start up the regular 5.9 start of Yellow Spur in Eldo. As I struggle with the initial moves, someone else grabs the 10b variation on the left (which is listed in Levin's book as Original start, 273b) . The leader of the team on the left plans and succeeds to hit the roof crux before me and moves along to the first belay spot and I am "stranded" in the middle of the traverse as the other team's follower hangs on the crux roof. Finally, he pulls the roof and I can move up to share the first belay spot. The leader of the other team decides to link up the next two pitches, which takes him quite some time, so my party is hanging out for a while. Suddenly, a third party starts at the base and quickly comes up and shares our somewhat crowded belay spot. Before the first party's follower leaves the belay spot, the third team starts up the variation 2nd pitch on the right (route 273d) that I was unaware of and of course they didn't tell me about. So, I start to lead after the first party's follower and can only do one short pitch, since the third party leader is linking into the regular third pitch. So, the third party has now finally completely passed us and everything is peaceful as I start up the third pitch. But, wouldn't you know?, party #4 hikes in from the left on Red Ledge, so once again a little tea break for my party. I am stupid enough to just hang out at the good belay spot instead of moving it 25ft to the right. Just as the follower of the fourth party leaves, party #5 pops around the corner from the Ruper ledge on the right. ... and so on ... after 7h I am finally at the belay spot at the start of the crux pitch putting my follower on belay. Suddenly, someone raps in to do the crux pitch itself ... etc ...

My initial response:

At first I thought this is a totally bogus analogy.  Far from apples to apples.  Yellow Spur vs Yellow Spur Original Start.  These lines start on the ground only 30 feet from each other and merge 25 feet off the ground.  Both parties could easily see each other and talk to each other from the get go knowing they are about to get on the same line.  It would be like two cars on a two lane on ramp that clearly merges into one lane in 100 feet.  The OP's situation is more like one party see lots of cars on the on ramp and decides to take some local roads and get on the highway a few miles down the road not knowing what lies ahead.

But, the right response is:  

If you have climbed 500 days in Eldo, why the hell are you climbing the Yellow Spur.  Let some other people have at it.  There are 1500 other routes.  

Greg D wrote:

My initial response:

At first I thought this is a totally bogus analogy.  Far from apples to apples.  Yellow Spur vs Yellow Spur Original Start.  These lines start on the ground only 30 feet from each other and merge 25 feet off the ground.  Both parties could easily see each other and talk to each other from the get go knowing they are about to get on the same line.  It would be like two cars on a two lane on ramp that clearly merges into one lane in 100 feet.  The OP's situation is more like one party see lots of cars on the on ramp and decides to take some local roads and get on the highway a few miles down the road not knowing what lies ahead.

But, the right response is:  

If you have climbed 500 days in Eldo, why the hell are you climbing the Yellow Spur.  Let some other people have at it.  There are 1500 other routes.  

Yes, of course I don't go there (unless a visiting foreigner/out-of-stater really wants to get on YS with me). I wrote it (at least tried) as a blatantly obvious ridiculous example of what some people would consider perfectly fine example of how to merge onto a line with people already on it. If the anarchy rule really is "first come, first serve" on each of the individual pitches, this is what might happen and no one should expect the "suffering" party to be pissed, because this is the rule. And, yes, the initial start sequence has nothing to do with the OP, but party #4 and #5 are the exact same situation. Freely jump in because they are there first. Still, I believe very few people will do what party #4 and #5 did in this example (and even less what #2, #3, and #6 (the rap-in party) did). *

But, guess what? The one and only example I have experienced and mentioned previously in this thread (the Texas dude), did EXACTLY what party #2 did in my description! Unfortunately (for him), he couldn't pull the 10b move down low quickly enough, so the one I was belaying (a visiting Swiss lady) on the regular start could pull the crux roof before him.

No one in this thread has "taken issue" with the OPs choice of "taking the local roads" as you describe. The OP even knew where the local roads would take him and he intended to use the local roads to the top. The issue is when he changes his mind and merges back on the highway in between two tightly spaced cars even though he could have continued on the local road to the top. 

Dave Holliday wrote: Exactly. If one gets off the beaten path a little a little in Eldo, one will discover some pretty fun climbing with no lines.

Very true. I have never waited in line for anything in Eldo and I have no plans on doing so. Our dry climate keeps moss and lichen off even the obscure routes around here, so there are plenty of good lines to pick from.

* EDIT: IME (Eldo and other places) very few climbers (in my estimate) would do what party #4 and #5 did in the over-the-top example I gave. This is where I got my (maybe skewed/old-fashioned/out-of-line?) impression that most climbers regard "first come, first serve" as a rule for a complete line, not for each of the pitches on a route.  

This seem like a complex situation with no single easy answer. 

Well other than the front range climbing scene is a clusterfuck.  ;)

West slope best slope