Borrowing a lead rope from the gym

Noah: Lying? Really?

I'd be happy to eat my words if someone who works in a gym can produce an excerpt from an insurance policy that contains one of these mythic clauses, but I don't believe they exist.

And then the point stands - if you're a gym owner, why would you risk going into lenghtly legal battles in case of an accident, and loose tons of money even if you win, instead of just saying "no because insurances". At the end of the day, that is still true. While it's not literally in the contract that specifically, they still have ground to refuse based on insurance-related issues that may arise.

Franck Vee wrote:

And then the point stands - if you're a gym owner, why would you risk going into lenghtly legal battles in case of an accident, and loose tons of money even if you win, instead of just saying "no because insurances". At the end of the day, that is still true. While it's not literally in the contract that specifically, they still have ground to refuse based on insurance-related issues that may arise.

Exactly. Over at Sadler & Company, a sports insurance company, they mention:

The risk management practices for indoor rock climbing General Liability insurance policies include:

• participants being required to wear helmets and shoes and utilize harnesses and ropes
• regular inspection of ropes and anchors, landing and wall surfaces, and hand and footholds
• hiring experienced, CPR and first-aid certified climbing instructors and staff
• posting and enforcement of rules
• minimum age and height requirements.

The two items I bolded are how a gym can say "due to insurance you can't use a gri-gri..." which means we have a set of rules (which our insurance carrier required in order to give us a quote let alone write the policy) which says you have to use this kind of [not a gri-gri] belay device and our insurance requires you to follow our rules. The need for certified climbing instructors thus prohibits the friend teaching a friend scenario. 

In short, if you intend to teach anyone how to climb, do it outside where the Man isn't trying to control you. 

Stich Stich wrote:

In short, if you intend to teach anyone how to climb, do it outside where the Man isn't trying to control you. 

bro, talkin about the gym here. how can you ever even think about outdoor climbing without gym classes? thats friggin crazy talk!

why would a gym allow a random person to teach someone else a very important safety skill. No gym wants to create a atmosphere that will allow an injury. It's not you, but there is a reason they have to put "caution this coffee is hot" on you order.... people are too dumb to trust. 

Ska Ggs wrote:

why would a gym allow a random person to teach someone else a very important safety skill. No gym wants to create a atmosphere that will allow an injury. It's not you, but there is a reason they have to put "caution this coffee is hot" on you order.... people are too dumb to trust. 

You have news:

https://spoonuniversity.com/lifestyle/the-history-of-the-caution-contents-hot-label-on-your-coffee

700 people a year burning themselves because McDonald held their coffee pots at 180 farenheit even though drinking coffee temperature is about 130 is the real reason behind that warning....

hiring experienced, CPR and first-aid certified climbing instructors and staff.

Seems pretty clear.

Take it outside - that's where all the best things happen anyways.  :-)

"has beard, wears a beanie."

How is that relevant to the issue the slightest?

Would his response been more palatable if he was wearing a suit & tie?

Professional appearance is subjective to the respective industry.

I manage a gym, and am currently sporting both beard & beanie.

Climbers wear beanies, have beards. 

Is an owner of a tattoo shop unprofessional if he/her is all tatted up with face tats? 

You can't teach someone to swim at a pool you don't work for. You can't act as a personal trainer at a gym who doesn't employ or permit you to do so. Why should a climbing gym be different?

Noah Yetter wrote:

Any gym that says "our insurance requires " is lying. Insurance requirements are not that detailed.

I don't think the OP said he wanted to borrow a rope for "mock leading." He said it was to teach someone to lead climb. Insurance companies would almost certainly specifically prohibit outside instruction at a climbing gym. Choice of language when talking to the front desk probably would have gone a long way. 

AndrewArroz wrote:

 Choice of language when talking to the front desk probably would have gone a long way. 

The concept of "need to know" has applications well outside spy work and parenthood.

I find it weird, I didn't even know it was forbidden until I read this thread. I've taught a couple people how to lead climb in the gym. All of them friends I'd climbed with before. I've never had any staff bring it up to me. But, I just ask for a lead rope at the desk and leave it at that. They don't need to know why, I have my fancy green zip-tie that tells them I am a qualified rope handler. Also, I think requiring a paid class on basic safety skills is bullshit. An advanced guide to leading? Definitely, I'm all for it. I'd even be super happy to see an "expert" level class, because there definitely are some things only very comfortable leaders should do. But, just knowing the skills of lead climbing is a requirement for belaying(IMO) so that you can understand what you need to do as a belayer. Is this perhaps that rare circumstance where paying out more slack is better? That class should be complementary with that new membership fee(also BS), especially the belay class. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to have a membership at a climbing gym if you can't belay. If you go to any other discipline gym, and ask someone at the front desk, they will show you how to do anything. You stop a guy at a power lifters gym and ask them to look at your deadlift form? No problem. You ask a staff member to make sure you don't have any bad belay habits? You're not allowed to belay anymore.

I have never owned or worked at a climbing gym but I was an underwriter for 10 years and can tell you that the accident rate of a place will impact their ability to get insurance at a reasonable rate if at all.  I would imagine that GL insurance is one of the larger cost of running a gym so I would be pretty protective of my business and not let strangers risk my policy.  

Eliot Augusto wrote:

I find it weird, I didn't even know it was forbidden until I read this thread. I've taught a couple people how to lead climb in the gym. All of them friends I'd climbed with before. I've never had any staff bring it up to me. But, I just ask for a lead rope at the desk and leave it at that. They don't need to know why, I have my fancy green zip-tie that tells them I am a qualified rope handler. Also, I think requiring a paid class on basic safety skills is bullshit. An advanced guide to leading? Definitely, I'm all for it. I'd even be super happy to see an "expert" level class, because there definitely are some things only very comfortable leaders should do. But, just knowing the skills of lead climbing is a requirement for belaying(IMO) so that you can understand what you need to do as a belayer. Is this perhaps that rare circumstance where paying out more slack is better? That class should be complementary with that new membership fee(also BS), especially the belay class. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to have a membership at a climbing gym if you can't belay. If you go to any other discipline gym, and ask someone at the front desk, they will show you how to do anything. You stop a guy at a power lifters gym and ask them to look at your deadlift form? No problem. You ask a staff member to make sure you don't have any bad belay habits? You're not allowed to belay anymore.

Who said they require a class to lead climb there? These are the test requirements for the gym in question. Took me 3 seconds using the google machine to find it. Hardly onerous criteria. I think what the OP said is that if you are going to get TAUGHT at that gym you need to do it via their class. Which is fair. But every gym I've ever been to lets knowledgeable climbers test in.

"The Lead Climb Badge: To pass a lead climbing test, you must be able to top rope 5.10 and lead climb 5.8.  When climbing you must demonstrate proper clipping technique and be able to describe improper clipping practices (z-clipping, back clipping). Climbers should be able to describe and identify back-stepping. When belaying, you will demonstrate quickly letting out and taking in slack, how to catch a fall, and proper position to the wall."

Eliot Augusto wrote:

I find it weird, I didn't even know it was forbidden until I read this thread. I've taught a couple people how to lead climb in the gym. All of them friends I'd climbed with before. I've never had any staff bring it up to me. But, I just ask for a lead rope at the desk and leave it at that. They don't need to know why, I have my fancy green zip-tie that tells them I am a qualified rope handler. Also, I think requiring a paid class on basic safety skills is bullshit. An advanced guide to leading? Definitely, I'm all for it. I'd even be super happy to see an "expert" level class, because there definitely are some things only very comfortable leaders should do. But, just knowing the skills of lead climbing is a requirement for belaying(IMO) so that you can understand what you need to do as a belayer. Is this perhaps that rare circumstance where paying out more slack is better? That class should be complementary with that new membership fee(also BS), especially the belay class. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to have a membership at a climbing gym if you can't belay. If you go to any other discipline gym, and ask someone at the front desk, they will show you how to do anything. You stop a guy at a power lifters gym and ask them to look at your deadlift form? No problem. You ask a staff member to make sure you don't have any bad belay habits? You're not allowed to belay anymore.

Ever heard of bouldering? Plenty of people go to the gym and only boulder. Why do they need to be able to belay?

I have no problem whatsoever with there being an additional fee for a belay CLASS. In general, the gym has to bring in a staff member to teach it, that person is committing couple hours of their time, they should be paid, it makes sense that there is a fee that covers this class specifically, paid by people who take the class, rather than adding a little bit extra to everyone's gym membership to cover this, because many people do not need to take this class.

I think testing someone who wants to be lead- or belay-certified in the gym should be free. It doesn't require a separate staff member and a long time commitment. And in terms of how often they have to do it in a course of their work day, it is relatively infrequent, after the first couple month where the gym just opened and everyone who wants to climb there has to get their "badges". 

BIG FUN wrote:

 general manager (beard, wears a beanie) 

Best part right there. Passive aggressive commentary on how his appearance should somehow undermine his competency. 

Thats a stupid policy.  If you are just giving her instruction and neither of you is actually leading then you haven't done anything wrong.  If you teach her and she passes the lead test then she is legit and if she doesn't pass the lead test then she needs more practice.  Some gym employees think that leading in the gym is some magical skill that only they can teach but the process is pretty simple.  In many ways belaying a leader is almost easier because you are just feeding rope out and as long as the belayer is paying attention and is ready for a bigger fall than it's no different than top roping.  In terms of leading you just need to learn to clip correctly.  I've worked in gyms (and guided professionally for 14 years) and have never heard of the rule that you can't teach your partner something in the gym.  They just need to focus on whether you can pass the belay/lead test before you are actually climbing. Next time just check out the rope and do your thing.

Lena chita wrote:

Ever heard of bouldering? Plenty of people go to the gym and only boulder. Why do they need to be able to belay?

I have no problem whatsoever with there being an additional fee for a belay CLASS. In general, the gym has to bring in a staff member to teach it, that person is committing couple hours of their time, they should be paid, it makes sense that there is a fee that covers this class specifically, paid by people who take the class, rather than adding a little bit extra to everyone's gym membership to cover this, because many people do not need to take this class.

I think testing someone who wants to be lead- or belay-certified in the gym should be free. It doesn't require a separate staff member and a long time commitment. And in terms of how often they have to do it in a course of their work day, it is relatively infrequent, after the first couple month where the gym just opened and everyone who wants to climb there has to get their "badges". 

Yeah I have, and they don't need to know how to belay. I was expecting someone to come back with "what about the yoga classes, and weights and stuff." For a CLASS, yes I'd agree. But, the kind of instruction I'm thinking of would be akin to the belay test. It doesn't take hours to teach someone the proper technique for belaying with an ATC in a gym, there are only 4 hand movements to feed or take slack. Also you can't say that people at the desk don't have time. I don't want this to imply that all gym workers are lazy, but I have rarely seen every gym staff member so busy they can't do a belay test. The instruction could be offer to the customer at that point.