What's going on with these SS 5pc Bolt heads?

Jim Titt wrote:

Quick question, do heating/cooling cycles affect the material? I recall heat tinting making metal more brittle? You clearly know more about this than me, just thought I'd ask.

John Byrnes wrote:

 I was taught that work-hardening of hangers (bolts too) was a significant part of its final strength.   I was also know that heating steel will anneal it, meaning the work hardening would be removed, if the recrystalization temperature is reached.  

So 390C is, apparently, not hot enough to anneal the steel, but if someone is doing this in their garage, how do they control the temperature?  Is the color change your indication of temperature?  Do you need to be careful not to spot-heat the metal (in other words, keep the torch moving) so you don't soften part of the hanger?

The  only work-hardening in a hanger is right on the bend and a minute fringe around the holes and outside where the stamping dies pass which I doubt is anything more than thousands of an inch, the rest of the hanger is as delivered condition. One manufacturer actually offers hangers which have been annealed after manufacture to reduce stress corrosion but they admit privately it doesn´t make any difference in reality. 

The annealing process for stainless steel is soaked at a minimum of 1050°C and quenched in water, this is glowing cherry red so a bit unlikely really! You actually just warm the thing over with a gas burner and watch the colour change to whatever you want, it´s not reversible without stripping the oxide layer off so gently does it. Keep the flame moving to heat the hanger evenly as it  conducts very poorly. Air cool.

I weld a hell of a lot of stainless so get used to how it reacts to heat, a gentle warming is of the surface is doing nothing. We don´t even do anything special after it´s been melted when welding, just chuck it to the side to cool down.

Good to know.   Thanks Jim.   Oh, what about the glue-ins?  Same approach?

Sue, it´s actually an industrial process used to make architectural elements for stainless buildings which is why you can find the colour charts. In practice the hassle is it must be done in an oxygen rich atmosphere (normal air) which is a bit of a problem with a lot of furnaces and why you try to keep the torch moving to let the air get at the surface. I´ve contemplated making an electric furnace to colour bolts but don´t really see the market being there, I reckon half the guys that paint them do it because it´s their hobby, not because they desperately want brown hangers. Doing them fast enough to make it economic is another problem, I can´t see the profits allowing me to add another Ferrari to my collection!

ClimbBaja wrote:

Sam, 

Could the dimpling be a paint finish? It makes no sense that a Powers Power-Bolt (aka: "5-piece") would be hammered into sandstone with heavy hammer blows that would deform the steel to that degree.

It's difficult to tell from the photo, but the appearance is similar to that created by "hammered finish" paints. I've used one product, "Hammerite" for years. An aesthetic effect for repainting toolboxes, etc. Available in silver-gray color: http://www.kilz.com/hammerite/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=abbfe31ef7ba0210VgnVCM1000008c05d103RCRD

Rustoleum is in the game now with their product (available in silver color, spray or liquid):

https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/universal/universal-hammered-spray-paint/

Another clue may be that the hanger was painted. The installer went to the trouble of painting hangers. So, perhaps chose to paint the bolts as well. 

It's all speculation until someone inspects and tries to chip paint off the surface of the bolt, or talks with the installer. 

Definitely not a paint finish, both were physically deformed on the surface. Obviously one more so than the other. 

I didn't pull either to confirm that they were 5pc but based on the other ASCA hardware on the route, and what has been provided to me by the ASCA I assume is the same SS 5pcs that I'm working with.

Sounds like the hammer is the #1 contender. I like the coloring tips though!

So here’s two bolts. On the left is zinc on the right is galvanized. I didn’t  have a stainless bolt on hand which would be harder but the effects would still be similar. The hammer I used was well worn so the waffles weren’t very sharp.  I whacked these things about 15 times each and they left considerable dimples.  If this was a brand new hammer it would’ve done a lot more damage  and I believe the bolt in question was hit well over 25 times. 

Joe Garibay wrote:

So here’s two bolts. On the left is zinc on the right is galvanized. I didn’t  have a stainless bolt on hand which would be harder but the effects would still be similar.

Wouldn't the stainless bolt head actually be a bit softer?

Nice sleuthing!

Brian in SLC wrote:

Wouldn't the stainless bolt head actually be a bit softer?

Nice sleuthing!

I’m not sure about it being harder or not. I know there’s different grades for each type. Maybe someone with better knowledge of metal could say. 

Jim Titt wrote:

I´m going for a poor attempt to make the bolt head so it doesn´t reflect the sun by hammering it all over. Americans and their stupid camo bolts, I´ll bet you can see the chalk on the holds from 2 miles away!

There are locations in America where "Ya-Hooos" will and do site there new scope in on shinny bolts.  I have replaced these shot up shinny hangers and bolts...so I continue to camo. my hardware for this reason and the fact that the less that is seen, the less the access issues.  To address your other point, with all the talent in our community, I wish someone could come up with a quality chalk in a camo. color.

Joe Garibay wrote:

I’m not sure about it being harder or not. I know there’s different grades for each type. Maybe someone with better knowledge of metal could say. 

Corresponds to tensile strength methinks.  Grade 8 bolt at Rockwell C33 to C39.  303 stainless at B83.  Fair bit softer in stainless as far as I can tell.  I know stainless powerbolts deform more when I whack them into a hole with a hammer.  Which is why I think the longer lengths tend to "spin" more in the hole and not snug up tight.

Joe Garibay wrote:

So here’s two bolts. On the left is zinc on the right is galvanized. I didn’t  have a stainless bolt on hand which would be harder but the effects would still be similar. The hammer I used was well worn so the waffles weren’t very sharp.  I whacked these things about 15 times each and they left considerable dimples.  If this was a brand new hammer it would’ve done a lot more damage  and I believe the bolt in question was hit well over 25 times. 

I'm blown away and i was totally wrong. I couldn't imagine the bolt being that much softer than the hammer that it could do that. Damn. Thanks for doing that.

gtluke wrote:

I'm blown away and i was totally wrong. I couldn't imagine the bolt being that much softer than the hammer that it could do that. Damn. Thanks for doing that.

Thanks for having the guts and humility to admit you're wrong on an internet forum. Let's make MP great again

Brian in SLC wrote:

Corresponds to tensile strength methinks.  Grade 8 bolt at Rockwell C33 to C39.  303 stainless at B83.  Fair bit softer in stainless as far as I can tell.  I know stainless powerbolts deform more when I whack them into a hole with a hammer.  Which is why I think the longer lengths tend to "spin" more in the hole and not snug up tight.

Most tool steels have a hardness of C45-65, at least that's what I remember from my basic metallurgy class. Hammer is probably going to win every time.

gtluke wrote:

I'm blown away and i was totally wrong. I couldn't imagine the bolt being that much softer than the hammer that it could do that. Damn. Thanks for doing that.

Was easy enough for me to demonstrate. Next time I whack my thumb with a new waffle head, I’ll show you photos of that mess. Tico nails win every time. 

Brian in SLC wrote:

Corresponds to tensile strength methinks.  Grade 8 bolt at Rockwell C33 to C39.  303 stainless at B83.  Fair bit softer in stainless as far as I can tell.  I know stainless powerbolts deform more when I whack them into a hole with a hammer.  Which is why I think the longer lengths tend to "spin" more in the hole and not snug up tight.

please let us all know where these deformed bolts are that you "whacked" into the hole are plz.

Brian in SLC wrote:

Corresponds to tensile strength methinks.  Grade 8 bolt at Rockwell C33 to C39.  303 stainless at B83.  Fair bit softer in stainless as far as I can tell.  I know stainless powerbolts deform more when I whack them into a hole with a hammer.  Which is why I think the longer lengths tend to "spin" more in the hole and not snug up tight.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but are you implying that most of the long 5 pieces you place turn out to be spinners that do not torque down properly??

T Roper wrote:

please let us all know where these deformed bolts are that you "whacked" into the hole are plz.

Tossed into the trash.  You're welcome.

rkrum wrote:

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but are you implying that most of the long 5 pieces you place turn out to be spinners that do not torque down properly??Go

A good portion of them.  I quit using the longer stainless five piece because the cone tended to "over smush" or the bolt would drive through the threads on the cone.  Especially in hard rock.  Pain in the butt to correct.

Hmm, I have not had that issue. In the last couple years, I've personally placed probably 30+ of the 1/2 x 4.75" SS power bolts. Zero have spun. All but I think 3 have been in relatively soft rock (wingate and entrada sandstone). However, in my experience, the harder the rock, the fewer turns of the wrench required for the bolt to torque down properly.

Over the same couple of years, I've watched my partners place probably an equal number of the same long 1/2" SS power bolts, and only witnessed maybe 5 spinners total. Those were all in somewhat exceptionally soft rock, about the softest I'd try to place an expansion bolt in.

Fwiw, I've found the longer bolts to be exceptionally intolerant of worn drill bits.

rkrum wrote:

Hmm, I have not had that issue. In the last couple years, I've personally placed probably 30+ of the 1/2 x 4.75" SS power bolts. Zero have spun. All but I think 3 have been in relatively soft rock (wingate and entrada sandstone). However, in my experience, the harder the rock, the fewer turns of the wrench required for the bolt to torque down properly.

Over the same couple of years, I've watched my partners place probably an equal number of the same long 1/2" SS power bolts, and only witnessed maybe 5 spinners total. Those were all in somewhat exceptionally soft rock, about the softest I'd try to place an expansion bolt in.

Fwiw, I've found the longer bolts to be exceptionally intolerant of worn drill bits.

The powers 5 piece are designed for a 13mm drill bit not 1/2 inch which is 12.7mm. It is indicated in small lettering on the bolt sleeve if I recall correctly.  Spinners can usually be tightened by putting a cut out washer (side cut out so it can be slid behind) behind the hanger then removing it after it bites.  Also they need to be retorqued after 48 hours as they can lose up to 50% of the initial torque in this time according to a powers representative.