Ideal difficulty for skill-enhancing "projects"

Franck Vee wrote:

Predator in Rumney

Franck, not to attack in any way, but assuming you're talking about the 13b Predator, do you think that's really the most suitable project for you if your goal is to enhance skills? If your ticks are up to date here on MP, I'd say that you'd obviously want to climb at least one of the grades between your current max redpoint and your goal grade. 

As I said up-thread, I think getting in a lot of redpoint volume is the best way to enhance skills. Mega-projecting really only enhances the skills necessary for those moves on that specifc route, and while this approach can be useful for mental toughness and perseverance towards a goal, probably isn't enhancing your physical skills nearly as much as redpoint volume. And I agree, using the pyramid approach (at least loosely) is a great way to achieve volume in this way.

Imagine how many redpoints (on various climbing styles, moves, holds, etc) you can get under your belt in the time it takes to send a multi-season project. The pros make us think that mega-projects are a worthy endeavor, but remember that most of them got a shit-ton of volume in their formative years before we ever heard of them.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

How does multipitch figure into this?

It doesn't...

This thread is pretty much talking about single-pitch sport climbing.

Even if you take trad out of equation, and focus on only multi-pitch sport climbing, the emphasis there would be a lot more on endurance and stamina. I am assuming here that we are talking about all-day-long multipitch, and not a 250ft tall 2-3 pitch Gunks route.

For a long multi-pitch climb, you would not be sending routes that have pitches as hard as your hardest single-pitch redpoint, assuming that you want to do this climb in a day, and not siege-project each individual pitch until you send it.

I haven't done any multi-pitch climbing that required more than couple hours of commitment on my part, but I have done some comps that put emphasis on climbing as many routes as possible in about 6 hours, and you do go a LOT below even your flash grade to get the pitch count up. If you are aiming to do 15 pitches without a break, you might pull off couple pitches at your flash limit in there, but most of them would have to be a lot easier.

So, to train for that, I would pick some climbs couple grades below my best flash and do 12-15 pitches on them with timed rests.

evan h wrote:

Franck, (...) I'd say that you'd obviously want to climb at least one of the grades between your current max redpoint and your goal grade. 

Yeah, I told myself that when I got on it then most days when I go training for it. Hahaha. No worries - happy to hear advices on that.

But then I'm probably going to Red River (so not working on it) next spring for the week off from university, then summer we'll see but likely to go bum around somewhere around Ten Sleep or Spearfish or something. Where I would be projecting in-line with the pyramid theory. The way I see it, I have 1 ongoing, long-term project (Predator) then when I'm on a trip it's a different ball game, trying to project smaller stuff & more climbable stuff over a few attempts/days. Rumney is week-endable for me (about 3-4hrs drive).

The motivations for Predator for me are:

• I'm psyched about the line. When you first get to that crag, one of the first thing you ask yourself (at least I did) is "can you climb that line?"
• I've never really projected much of anything beyond 5-6 attempts, and mostly climbed onsight. I think it's time for me to develop that climbing style.
• I would say that steeper, bouldery stuff is an overall weakness. I wanted to find a longer-term project in order to focus on training & skills related to that (so power stuff & bouldering), so that I can bring that types of climb closer to par with face, slabby, slight overhang stuff I can climb.

I used to run marathons & halfs, and then I got that idea to go for a 100k ultramarathon, a couple years back. I gave myself a year to prepare and I pulled it off (barely). I see Predator in a similar lense - I have a lot of time to make a big jump in capacity.

I definitely wouldn't run 100k right now. But I would still say it was worthwhile as a personnal project.

EDIT: and yeah, you may be right it's probably not an "optimal" way to enhance skills, from a project perspective. But then you also need to be motivated to achieve your goals - if I stick to my training plan because I believe I can send that in a year or two, then it will probably have made me train & climb harder than I would otherwise have... In that sense, a non-optimal strategy may, in the real world, end up with better results, taking the human factor into account. Also since I've been telling as much people around me that I was gonna do that, I'd look like a bit of a loud mouth if I don't at least come close!

Franck Vee wrote:

Yeah, I told myself that when I got on it then most days when I go training for it. Hahaha. No worries - happy to hear advices on that.

But then I'm probably going to Red River (so not working on it) next spring for the week off from university, then summer we'll see but likely to go bum around somewhere around Ten Sleep or Spearfish or something. Where I would be projecting in-line with the pyramid theory. The way I see it, I have 1 ongoing, long-term project (Predator) then when I'm on a trip it's a different ball game, trying to project smaller stuff & more climbable stuff over a few attempts/days. Rumney is week-endable for me (about 3-4hrs drive).

The motivations for Predator for me are:

• I'm psyched about the line. When you first get to that crag, one of the first thing you ask yourself (at least I did) is "can you climb that line?"
• I've never really projected much of anything beyond 5-6 attempts, and mostly climbed onsight. I think it's time for me to develop that climbing style.
• I would say that steeper, bouldery stuff is an overall weakness. I wanted to find a longer-term project in order to focus on training & skills related to that (so power stuff & bouldering), so that I can bring that types of climb closer to par with face, slabby, slight overhang stuff I can climb.

I used to run marathons & halfs, and then I got that idea to go for a 100k ultramarathon, a couple years back. I gave myself a year to prepare and I pulled it off (barely). I see Predator in a similar lense - I have a lot of time to make a big jump in capacity.

I definitely wouldn't run 100k right now. But I would still say it was worthwhile as a personnal project.

Ask Rumney regulars if Social Outcast is a good stepping stone to Predator.  I only bring it up b/c it's also crazy steep. And photogenic.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Ask Rumney regulars if Social Outcast is a good stepping stone to Predator.  I only bring it up b/c it's also crazy steep. And photogenic.

Hey thanks for the suggestion - will look into it next time arodun!

Gunkiemike wrote:

Ask Rumney regulars if Social Outcast is a good stepping stone to Predator.  I only bring it up b/c it's also crazy steep. And photogenic.

Maybe a stepping pebble. Also it's an inverted corner rather than an arête. The moves on Predator are very different. Wild Blue Yonder seems like a stepping stone

evan h wrote:

Thinking long-term, and I think you're on to it, power endurance is fleeting. Strength and power are slow to build, but are cumulative and exhibit slower declines. Take a couple of weeks away from pumpy climbing and your PE will suck. Put in a couple of sessions of 4x4's (or the like) and you're right back up there. Try not bouldering or taxing the fingers for a few weeks -- you'll have to put in a lot more work to get your strength and power back where it needs to be.

On a similar note, that's why I've never understood the desire of sport climbers to bang out roped pitches in a gym instead of bouldering. The fact that there's a preference towards roped climbing in the first place probably equates to the body's suitability to the endurance end of the spectrum (or you'd be a boulderer), but people keep looking to get pumped. 

Well, to be fair, there are the mental aspects of leading as well.  I mostly boulder in the gym because I’m on dad-time (erratic and often last-minute), but I like to get a few leads in a week just to keep my head in check.  If I take too long of a break from ropes, when I get back on I find I’m scared to fall again, inefficient with clipping, etc.

Franck Vee wrote:

@aikibujin: Sounds great man - I hope mine may go in a year or so (next fall). The route is known for being though to link but not that hard (Predator in Rumney).

I think that’s a worthy goal. Looks like a very fun and inspiring route, which is important to keep the psyche high. I mean, I want to try it too just looking at the picture! With such a big overhang and “few stopper moves” according to the description, I think this is definitely a route that if you can do the individual moves, then it’s really just a question of getting the efficiency and fitness in order to send.

And I think you have the right mind set in setting this as a long term objective, yet not going to focus on it to the exclusion of everything else. Like Evan said, it’s good to still work on that grade pyramid. I basically have the same plan as you, my mega project is Sonic Youth in Clear Creek. My hardest RP to date is 12b, so that’s a similarly lofty goal. Luckily in Colorado I can generally climb through winter when it’s not snowing (in fact winter is the time to send hard!). So my plan is to do some tier-1 and tier-2 routes when I get out (usually at a different area in the canyon, I’m in the process of working a 12a right now in fact), and then at the end of the day go to SY (Sonic Youth) and put in one session on it. I think this gives me the benefit of working on my grade pyramid (which I’m also a fan of) and getting some beta refinement on my mega proj at the same time.

aikibujin wrote:

I think that’s a worthy goal. Looks like a very fun and inspiring route, which is important to keep the psyche high. I mean, I want to try it too just looking at the picture! With such a big overhang and “few stopper moves” according to the description, I think this is definitely a route that if you can do the individual moves, then it’s really just a question of getting the efficiency and fitness in order to send.

And I think you have the right mind set in setting this as a long term objective, yet not going to focus on it to the exclusion of everything else. Like Evan said, it’s good to still work on that grade pyramid. I basically have the same plan as you, my mega project is Sonic Youth in Clear Creek. My hardest RP to date is 12b, so that’s a similarly lofty goal. Luckily in Colorado I can generally climb through winter when it’s not snowing (in fact winter is the time to send hard!). So my plan is to do some tier-1 and tier-2 routes when I get out (usually at a different area in the canyon, I’m in the process of working a 12a right now in fact), and then at the end of the day go to SY (Sonic Youth) and put in one session on it. I think this gives me the benefit of working on my grade pyramid (which I’m also a fan of) and getting some beta refinement on my mega proj at the same time.

If you like Sonic you'll like Predator. It's a bunch of V3-4 with a V5 near the end. 

Jon Frisby wrote:

If you like Sonic you'll like Predator. It's a bunch of V3-4 with a V5 near the end. 

I don't need any convincing! I'm drooling just looking at the photos. Can someone just chop off that section of Rumney and relocate it to Colorado please? We have better weather here anyway.

evan h wrote:

Thinking long-term, and I think you're on to it, power endurance is fleeting. Strength and power are slow to build, but are cumulative and exhibit slower declines. Take a couple of weeks away from pumpy climbing and your PE will suck. Put in a couple of sessions of 4x4's (or the like) and you're right back up there. Try not bouldering or taxing the fingers for a few weeks -- you'll have to put in a lot more work to get your strength and power back where it needs to be.

On a similar note, that's why I've never understood the desire of sport climbers to bang out roped pitches in a gym instead of bouldering. The fact that there's a preference towards roped climbing in the first place probably equates to the body's suitability to the endurance end of the spectrum (or you'd be a boulderer), but people keep looking to get pumped. 

I wonder if that’s something that varies with the individual? To me, power has generally come easily, while endurance takes a long time to build. For example, I never trained on the campus board until maybe two or three seasons ago, but then I quickly got pretty good on it for the grades I climb. Since power comes easily for me, for the last 11 months I decided to skip training power, no campusing, no bouldering. I climbed exclusively on a rope or trained on my hangboard. Last week I went to ET to pick up some climbing holds and got back on the campus board for the first time in close to a year, and quickly matched my previous PRs after warming up. I was a bit surprised since I expected some decline in power.

As a counter example, last summer (2016) I followed a more strict linear program where I spent my strength and power phase primarily HBing, bouldering, and campusing. Comes fall, not only was my lead head all messed up, it also took a lot more than a few sessions of 4x4s (like a couple of months) to get my endurance back to where I was at the beginning of the year.

So maybe someone who is naturally better at power needs more endurance training, while someone who is naturally better at endurance needs more power training. Seems kind of logical.

aikibujin wrote:

I don't need any convincing! I'm drooling just looking at the photos. Can someone just chop off that section of Rumney and relocate it to Colorado please? We have better weather here anyway.

That would be so unfair.  Seriously, the last thing Colorado needs is more rock!

aikibujin wrote:

I wonder if that’s something that varies with the individual? To me, power has generally come easily, while endurance takes a long time to build. For example, I never trained on the campus board until maybe two or three seasons ago, but then I quickly got pretty good on it for the grades I climb. Since power comes easily for me, for the last 11 months I decided to skip training power, no campusing, no bouldering. I climbed exclusively on a rope or trained on my hangboard. Last week I went to ET to pick up some climbing holds and got back on the campus board for the first time in close to a year, and quickly matched my previous PRs after warming up. I was a bit surprised since I expected some decline in power.

As a counter example, last summer (2016) I followed a more strict linear program where I spent my strength and power phase primarily HBing, bouldering, and campusing. Comes fall, not only was my lead head all messed up, it also took a lot more than a few sessions of 4x4s (like a couple of months) to get my endurance back to where I was at the beginning of the year.

So maybe someone who is naturally better at power needs more endurance training, while someone who is naturally better at endurance needs more power training. Seems kind of logical.

It is something that varies with the individual, but most sport climbers are naturally inclined towards endurance. You should be a boulderer :)

evan h wrote:

You should be a boulderer :)

I was / probably still is! I started climbing by bouldering on a friend's basement woody, so I guess I'm always a boulderer at heart. I just enjoy sport climbing more right now, but I still go bouldering from time to time.

aikibujin wrote:

I wonder if that’s something that varies with the individual? To me, power has generally come easily, while endurance takes a long time to build. For example, I never trained on the campus board until maybe two or three seasons ago, but then I quickly got pretty good on it for the grades I climb. Since power comes easily for me, for the last 11 months I decided to skip training power, no campusing, no bouldering. I climbed exclusively on a rope or trained on my hangboard. Last week I went to ET to pick up some climbing holds and got back on the campus board for the first time in close to a year, and quickly matched my previous PRs after warming up. I was a bit surprised since I expected some decline in power.

As a counter example, last summer (2016) I followed a more strict linear program where I spent my strength and power phase primarily HBing, bouldering, and campusing. Comes fall, not only was my lead head all messed up, it also took a lot more than a few sessions of 4x4s (like a couple of months) to get my endurance back to where I was at the beginning of the year.

So maybe someone who is naturally better at power needs more endurance training, while someone who is naturally better at endurance needs more power training. Seems kind of logical.

It definitely varies with the individual. Power is my weakness. When I do a campusing phase in training, I progress nicely. But I don't do campusing all the time, and after 4 months off, in the next training cycle, I feel like I start pretty much back on square one, and can barely go up the large rungs doing 1-2-3-4-5.

Interestingly though, I do not see a big decline in my bouldering grade after taking time off... So somehow my bouldering is not very powerful in nature?

Endurance declines quickly for me, if I am not climbing longer routes, but comes back after a week or two, at most.

Lena chita wrote:

Interestingly though, I do not see a big decline in my bouldering grade after taking time off... So somehow my bouldering is not very powerful in nature?

Precision. When skillfull one takes a long break, they replaying theirs muscle memories thinking about moves. This is very important phase of technique training. The thing is when training actual moves we all waste some energy to unnecessary micro-moves. As always those unnecessary wasteful micro-moves gradually become a part of "big" moves. Thus actively training technique skills are always "dirty". When taking a long (month or longer) rest we replay those moves in our imagination like perfect. We train our central nervous system via firing complex synchronized neural signals. For sure we fire only "necessary" signals. Thus we clean up our neural moves schemes (sometimes referred as engrams). Thus we improve our technique (precision, timing, etc).

After long rest you gain some technique. Not that much although if your technique skills are well developed even a tiny bit of improvement makes a huge difference.

Lena chita wrote:

Interestingly though, I do not see a big decline in my bouldering grade after taking time off... So somehow my bouldering is not very powerful in nature?

That’s entirely possible but only you would know for sure. It’s also possible that you’re able to compensate by using flexibility, body position, stronger fingers, etc. I remember you mentioning somewhere else that you’re not a very tall climber (me neither). Us shorties tend to be good at using higher footholds that sometimes turn a dynamic move into a static one.

Tall vs short explained in "spherical horse in a harmonic motion in vacuum" manner.

Let's consider two climbers, T is k times taller than S.

T's body volume and body mass is k^3 times more than S's.

T's muscular sectional area is k^2 times more than S's. Which translates to k^2 times more strength.

Thus T's body mass to strength ratio is k times less then S's.

A long route requires k times less T's moves versus S's.

In perfectly linear world T and S are equal - T is k times weaker (in mass/weight ratio terms), although T should do k times less moves. The real world is non-linear - move repetition count grows way faster than linear when decreasing the load to max possible load ratio.

In short, when a route is possible to both T and S the former has to climb way faster than the latter to get  there with the same level of fatigue. S is stronger (in climbing terms: strength to mass ratio). Although T has an advantage of making long moves impossible to S or skip some moves and climb faster.

Bottom line. When a route is possible to both tall and short climbers it is easier to the short one. But there are routes just impossible (or requiring powerful dyno moves) for the short one.

Neither being short or tall is an advantage.

Pavel Burov wrote:

Tall vs short explained in "spherical horse in a harmonic motion in vacuum" manner.

...

Neither being short or tall is an advantage.

What the... did they legalize marijuana in Russia too?!

But no, you're wrong. Tom Randall has actually done data analysis of climbers (none of this "muscular sectional area is k^2 times more, which translates to k^2 times more strength" stuff that's totally unsubstantiated), and concluded that height is generally (with caveats) an advantage in climbing, even with the higher body weight and such.

http://latticetraining.com/2017/08/10/height-in-climbing/

Lena chita wrote:

It definitely varies with the individual. Power is my weakness. When I do a campusing phase in training, I progress nicely. But I don't do campusing all the time, and after 4 months off, in the next training cycle, I feel like I start pretty much back on square one, and can barely go up the large rungs doing 1-2-3-4-5.

Interestingly though, I do not see a big decline in my bouldering grade after taking time off... So somehow my bouldering is not very powerful in nature?

Endurance declines quickly for me, if I am not climbing longer routes, but comes back after a week or two, at most.

Interesting.

Power E is my weakness; first to go and last to regain,

Within reason, power is not my weakness.  Or at least that is what I thought based on my observation that I boulder at about the same grade or harder after taking 10 days or two weeks off, provided I have the discipline to warm up slowly and thoroughly after a long hiatus.  But maybe not because power is not my weakness.

My technique has almost certainly plateaued after > 25 years of climbing,  In fact, my footwork has probably gotten worse with better shoes and stickier sole rubber.  In the 90's, we thought LS Mythos and Tao were the best climbing equipment since SLCD.  LOL.