A simple pair of socks: REI, what's up?

Old lady H wrote:

It's just a pair of socks. 

Which makes me wonder why you felt the need to write this thread! It is entertaining, though.

Em Cos wrote:

She wanted socks, it was a lot more of a pain for her than the average person, it was annoying. No need to "strive to create a world..." unless you want to. 

It's a profound question: What defines an "average person?"  

Now we have the answer.  It is the degree of pain they experience when buying socks.

It is annoying, and IMO you should have special-ordered ship-to-store instead of paying extra for shipping to home.

But there is no getting around the fact that outlier sizes would never be easily available, for men or women. And the "outlier" definition really depends on your location. When I needed a nice winter coat (dressy, not for climbing), I tried looking in the stores locally, with no luck at all, poor selection, mostly ugly/not what I wanted, and none in my sizes. Going to NYC to visit family I repeated the process. With great success. Everything WAS available in my size, and the selection was so much better. Because there is a much bigger market in NYC for dressy jackets, and more petite women there, too, compared to OH.

I don't even bother shopping for climbing clothes at a local store. They generally start at size 4. or 6. Some bigger climbing shops at popular climbing destinations might have smaller sizes, but our local store sucks. But when I went to Spain, it was like Christmas (actually, it WAS Christmas, but...)-- all climbing clothes were available in my size. A shop in Cornudella, a teeny town with population below 1000, just for pants, had 5 different brands, with multiple models, all just hanging on the rack, in my size! it was such a novel experience... but that's what you get in a town that is close to very popular climbing destinations, and where the climber population in peak season would easily outnumber the locals... and also where you see a lot of petite climbers.

But on a flip side, when stuff goes on clearance online, I'm much more likely to find that my size is still available. So it kinda evens out, in terms of expenses, even if you sometimes have to order online and pay extra for shipping an item in your size, there would be other times when you would be able to snag it on clearance.

Mason Stone wrote:

I am with Scott, similar size and have broad shoulders and narrow waist so I can't find suits that fit right. 

I've never bought a suit that did not need alterations of some type. Are you really expecting to find one on the rack?

As a petite woman, I have a hard time finding clothes that fit me in stores. I think I understand why retail clothing outlets don't carry small sizes. As others have speculated, it's probably because the items don't sell as well as those with a more "average" fit. It's possible that the manufacturers don't even make as many of these items in a small size. Maybe the ones that they do make are sent to major metro areas where there are more people who are small-sized. This is all speculation, and I'd be curious to hear from the manufacturer about this.

It does appear to be true that clothes "expire", in this respect: New stock comes in every year, and I don't know why, but it's clear that retailers will do just about anything to get rid of old stock. So it seems like the old socks will just pile up and never be bought, and I assume (??) that the retailer paid for those socks. So they're in the red on them until they are sold. What happens to last season's clothes if they aren't sold? No idea.

I like you, OLH, but I'm a little surprised that you would make a special trip to a retailer and expect to find that a small size is in stock. Based on prior experience, I'm pleasantly surprised if I find something that fits me in a retail store. If I were looking for something in particular, I would always call in advance to see if it's on the shelf.

This is one reason that B&M stores are getting crushed by the online ones. People like me just skip the visit to the store and buy what we need online. I don't like paying the S&H either, which is why I hardly ever buy clothing, and when I do I try to buy multiple items at once to get the free S&H deal that most online retailers offer. Once in a while, like the OP, I'll need something PDQ and then I have to suck it up and just pay the postage. But think of the gas it cost you to drive into town... There's a transport cost to getting the goods, either way.

snobbit wrote:

REI doesn't carry women's approach shoes*. At all. Any size. They carry a half dozen or so men's styles. 

*Denver store, last year. 

Yeah, same in Abq., except in our town, REI drove every independent retailer out of business. We went to get approach shoes for the wife, who is size 35.5, and they have 5 men's version on the shelf, but don't carry a single women's model. (Men's shoes don't come in 35.5) 

So, only option is mail order without the option to try on before buying. Pretty lame IMO. 

Force of Nature: Putting Women Front & Center Outdoors at REI - REI ...

https://www.rei.com/h/force-of-nature

Force of Nature: Let's Level the Playing Field - REI Co-op Journal

https://www.rei.com/blog/news/force-of-nature-lets-level-the-playing-field

REI's Force Of Nature Wants To Change The Game For Women - Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/.../reis-force-of-nature-wants-to-change-the-game-for-women...

REI Takes On Femvertising With 'Force Of Nature' 04/04/2017

https://www.mediapost.com/.../rei-takes-on-femvertising-with-force-of-nature.html

REI Is Taking The Fight For Gender Equality Outside | Fast Company

https://www.fastcompany.com/.../rei-is-taking-the-fight-for-gender-equality-outside

REI says women are a "Force of Nature" | SmartBrief

www.smartbrief.com/s/2017/04/rei-says-women-are-force-nature

REI Launches Force of Nature to Reset Perception of the Outdoors

www.prnewswire.com/.../rei-launches-force-of-nature-to-reset-perception-of-the-outd...

"3. Closing the Gear Gaps

We hear you. Through the years, gear designed for women has improved, but there is still a gap between the quality of men’s and women’s gear. We are partnering with brands to increase focus on building world-class gear designed for women. We’re also working hard inside our own co-op brands and with vendors to offer expanded extended sizing options."

---------------------------------------------------------------

The "gendered" outlier on the smartwool size chart is not in the women's sizes. That "outlier" is carried in store at REI. The nongendered "outlier" on the other end is not. Yes, I am sure it is because they have sold more men's size 12-14.5 than men's size 3-5.5....in years past. 

Best, OLH

My new climbing shoes? Men's Miuras, lace. Because the locally owned store had Men's 37 to try on my small, but rather wide feet. Happy feet, happy climber! :-) 

Old lady H wrote:

Force of Nature: Putting Women Front & Center Outdoors at REI - REI ...

https://www.rei.com/h/force-of-nature

Force of Nature: Let's Level the Playing Field - REI Co-op Journal

https://www.rei.com/blog/news/force-of-nature-lets-level-the-playing-field

REI's Force Of Nature Wants To Change The Game For Women - Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/.../reis-force-of-nature-wants-to-change-the-game-for-women...

REI Takes On Femvertising With 'Force Of Nature' 04/04/2017

https://www.mediapost.com/.../rei-takes-on-femvertising-with-force-of-nature.html

REI Is Taking The Fight For Gender Equality Outside | Fast Company

https://www.fastcompany.com/.../rei-is-taking-the-fight-for-gender-equality-outside

REI says women are a "Force of Nature" | SmartBrief

www.smartbrief.com/s/2017/04/rei-says-women-are-force-nature

REI Launches Force of Nature to Reset Perception of the Outdoors

www.prnewswire.com/.../rei-launches-force-of-nature-to-reset-perception-of-the-outd...

"3. Closing the Gear Gaps

We hear you. Through the years, gear designed for women has improved, but there is still a gap between the quality of men’s and women’s gear. We are partnering with brands to increase focus on building world-class gear designed for women. We’re also working hard inside our own co-op brands and with vendors to offer expanded extended sizing options."

---------------------------------------------------------------

The "gendered" outlier on the smartwool size chart is not in the women's sizes. That "outlier" is carried in store at REI. The nongendered "outlier" on the other end is not. Yes, I am sure it is because they have sold more men's size 12-14.5 than men's size 3-5.5....in years past. 

Best, OLH

My new climbing shoes? Men's Miuras, lace. Because the locally owned store had Men's 37 to try on my small, but rather wide feet. Happy feet, happy climber! :-) 

They do have those extended sizing options, they're just not stocked locally at your store. It doesn't say they're going to stock them in every store. They're available online, and they'll ship them to your local store for free, at no additional cost to you. (And it's easy to check online whether your local store has it in stock.)

I like you, Helen, but why are you picking this particular hill to wage a battle, and why are you singling out REI? I understand you were miffed that they didn't have your size, but they could have gotten it for you with no shipping charges. Did you choose to pay shipping out of spite?

Old lady H wrote:

Force of Nature: Putting Women Front & Center Outdoors at REI - REI ...

https://www.rei.com/h/force-of-nature

...We’re also working hard inside our own co-op brands and with vendors to offer expanded extended sizing options."

OK they're "working hard" but a bit of PR is not going to make me drive to their store and expect to find anything in my size.

To contribute to thread drift, maybe you should try the Wim Hof method in preparation for ice climbing (but do take appropriate precautions). Beats socks any day :)

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

I'm a dude with a 28" waist. I can't go into REI, Dillard's, or Target and walk out with a pair of pants I can wear without a belt. 

I think it's toxic feminism to think this is a women's problem. My socks fit though.

I have the same problem, but from being tall. Extra long pants, large tall shirts. Shopping sucks. But you wouldn't believe the problems I have with cars, airplanes, doorways, light fixtures... the list goes on, this world is not made for me.

That said, my girlfriend has foot problems as well, the largest being ice climbing/mountaineering boots; many manufacturers don't make her size, and they're definitely not in stock.

Oh to be of average proportions.

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

They do have those extended sizing options, they're just not stocked locally at your store. It doesn't say they're going to stock them in every store. They're available online, and they'll ship them to your local store for free, at no additional cost to you. (And it's easy to check online whether your local store has it in stock.)

I like you, Helen, but why are you picking this particular hill to wage a battle, and why are you singling out REI? I understand you were miffed that they didn't have your size, but they could have gotten it for you with no shipping charges. Did you choose to pay shipping out of spite?

Sir, it is not an extended sizing  option, it is the absence  of a reasonably  mainstream  size. For women. 

Again, the "gendered" end of the sizes is on the shelf. N/A in women's sizes. Why not an extended sizing option on that end? As I said up thread, sure, they probably sell more men's 14.5 than men's 3.5. 

"A level playing field" is the talk they are promoting.

I am not "singling out REI", I am singling out their campaign.

Which I (somewhat) support.

If I was to hear from REI that it is a frustration they have with XYZ Distributing, I would throw my voice in with theirs.

Why this tiny, tiny, thing? That's the point. If something this small is too hard, how can the big, truly complex, hot button issues be addressed?

Your very responses (MP at large) show how easy  and comfortable it is to just let it slide, work around it, explain it away, on and on.

My socks will be here shortly. A reply from REI might take longer. 

The sale people at both stores were women. Both had a lot stronger opinion about this than I.

Best, OLH

Old lady H wrote:

My socks will be here shortly. A reply from REI might take longer. 

So....problem solved?   

Old lady H wrote:

 If something this small is too hard, how can the big, truly complex, hot button issues be addressed?

This is not "too hard" for REI (maybe it's too hard for you), because the company stocks what they want. Not what you want. What they stock is based on demand, How can the big issues get resolved? Are you concerned that if they don't carry your socks, they have a hard time addressing larger business problems? Seriously? 

I think that the issue that "H" is referring to is REI's campaign focusing on and targeting women, when the reality is that they cannot be bothered to carry such basic things as women's winter socks and/or women's approach shoes. 

Climbers, of all people, should understand that "difficult" is relative, subjective, and mostly mental.

the schmuck wrote:

I think that the issue that "H" is referring to is REI's campaign focusing on and targeting women, when the reality is that they cannot be bothered to carry such basic things as women's winter socks and/or women's approach shoes. 

I may be labelled anti-feminist for this, but not everything is a conspiracy. Until someone can show that REI is deliberately ignoring demand for these two products in the sizes being discussed, than the economical explanation is more likely. Anecdotal evidence does not count, if it did, the fact that my partner explores the outdoors with me and has been doing so for many years before without running into a lack of socks or approach shoes at REI would be proof enough that there is no conspiracy.

If this was just "I'm mad at REI for not having my socks!" it's a legitimate complaint. They often don't carry things in my sizes, despite my averageness. Using this to illustrate that REI doesn't care about women is tantamount to crying wolf.

i get the climbing dirtbag culture, but that shouldn't necessarily mean willfully uneducated.   

suppose you have a shelf space, and you could use it to carry a women's size. but the fact is, even obscure men's sells 10x more. so for that shelf space, instead of earning 100$/week, you're earning 10$/week. it doesn't make business sense. it's not that women don't have needs, it's just that there's no industry for it. as you can see. . . even marginal gains are still gains.

   regardless, consider that men's sizes are even number only. waist sizes at 33 are basically not worth carrying. is that sizist against all 33 waist sizes? should the 33s ban together and demand REI incorporate factory production that isn't warranted by its output? i realize simple economics is beyond the abilities of the followers of selma jun, but maybe basic empathy is enough to understand 1st grade math. 

i was born in the gender class of leprechaun but identify as 63% male, 68% female, 33% both and 28% neither.

It is not a conspiracy, and nobody claimed it to be. However it is complete ignorance on part of REI combined with disingenuous  campaigning/advertising. It also isn't about sizing, but about carrying products that are appropriate for women. For example, when we looked for approach shoes, there were multiple models from Scarpa, 5.10, and LaSportiva. However, not a single model was a women's model, though all three manufacturers make them, and obviously feel like there is a market for women's climbing footwear. 

the schmuck wrote:

It is not a conspiracy, and nobody claimed it to be. However it is complete ignorance on part of REI combined with disingenuous  campaigning/advertising. It also isn't about sizing, but about carrying products that are appropriate for women. For example, when we looked for approach shoes, there were multiple models from Scarpa, 5.10, and LaSportiva. However, not a single model was a women's model, though all three manufacturers make them, and obviously feel like there is a market for women's gear. 

There are 10 models of women's approach shoes on REI's website that can be shipped for free to any REI location.  If they don't fit, you can return them right then and there for a full refund.  Is it ideal? No.  Is REI carrying products that are appropriate for women? Yes.  At the end of the day, REI is a business that seeks to earn money. I don't think you can knock them for not stocking models and sizes of products in stores when those products don't have the demand to support that business decision.   Conversely, if they did offer those items in their stores in the name of inclusivity, they would earn some kudos from me. 

the schmuck wrote:

It is not a conspiracy, and nobody claimed it to be. However it is complete ignorance on part of REI combined with disingenuous  campaigning/advertising. It also isn't about sizing, but about carrying products that are appropriate for women. For example, when we looked for approach shoes, there were multiple models from Scarpa, 5.10, and LaSportiva. However, not a single model was a women's model, though all three manufacturers make them, and obviously feel like there is a market for women's climbing footwear. 

The issue you're describing is free market capitalism. Why aren't there more women's models? Because it's more profitable for them to sell men's models. Why are they advertising this campaign? Because they think they can get more profit by capturing a larger part of the female market share.

Like most marketing campaigns this isn't about altruism it's about REI trying to make more profit. Yes it's disingenuous, but if it makes money it will be done (once again, free market capitalism)

I'm not saying this is "right" but our economic system isn't changing any time soon.