Do you stick clip? Why or why not?

Jef Anstey wrote:

I think it's dumb as hell when people develop hard routes with huge run outs or high first bolts (if intended to climb not stick clip) 

like a hard route... Any person is more likely to fall... So the route should be better protected if anything not worse.

I mean a 5.8 should still be well protected so that 5.8 level climbers can actually climb it but that goes even more for hard climbs IMO

I'm a fan of stick clips as long as it is prudent. But huge runouts on hard routes are the way to go, providing the following is true:

1) If I fall, I won't hit a ledge, protrusion or the ground

2) The bolt at the end of the runout isn't in the crux section.

3) Its not completely obvious that the bolts are spaced because of 80's "be a man" style

A 100 ft hard route with 8 bolts and anchors sounds a hell of a lot better than one with 16 bolts, because I can make some assumptions about the route that are easy to confirm from the ground. Like that the bolt placement was thoughtful, I don't have to stop every minute to clip something, or if there is a lot of chalk on the hard route then it isn't bad because people obviously fall on it and it isn't a "death route.

Clipping bolts is about safety, and difficulty of the climb(barely tenable generalization, I know). Stopping on shitty holds to clip something every 6 feet is terrible. But hey, my runout isn't your runout and I don't care how many meters I fall, as long as I don't hit things. You also swing back into the wall more gently with a longer fall.

Jef Anstey wrote:

I think it's dumb as hell when people develop hard routes with huge run outs or high first bolts (if intended to climb not stick clip) 

like a hard route... Any person is more likely to fall... So the route should be better protected if anything not worse.

I mean a 5.8 should still be well protected so that 5.8 level climbers can actually climb it but that goes even more for hard climbs IMO

The problem here, is 5.8 routes are not put up by 5.8 climbers. As far as I can tell (yes, I have limited experience), very few routes are put up with the intention that they can be climbed by someone who is at their limit on a low grade. They are simply routes that solid climbers deem easy. 

Here, Black Cliffs, and at City of Rocks too, there are plenty of climbs that are "easy", but still have an intimidating start, for a climber at that grade. 

The Black Cliffs are columnar basalt, and climbs may "start" after you solo up on top of a short column. Not everyone is comfortable with that, including my ancient knees.

At CoR, there are flakes and slabs to get over to get started. The guidebook mentions this, plus ways you can work around it, sometimes.

Best, OLH

Oh, also. Rock quality has a lot to do with bolt placement. There are lots of areas where there is a pegmatite band near the base of exposed granite. I'd just as soon not waste a bolt in that area. Or some of that trash limestone. I really haven't been to bad sandstone, now that I think about it...

Old lady H wrote:

The problem here, is 5.8 routes are not put up by 5.8 climbers. As far as I can tell (yes, I have limited experience), very few routes are put up with the intention that they can be climbed by someone who is at their limit on a low grade. They are simply routes that solid climbers deem easy. 

Did you do Delay of Game too? The climb up to that bolt was easy, it was the thought of bouncing off the already 20ft off the ground belay ledge if I slipped that made it ... "interesting". 

Mark Waterous wrote:

Did you do Delay of Game too? The climb up to that bolt was easy, it was the thought of bouncing off the already 20ft off the ground belay ledge if I slipped that made it ... "interesting". 

No, but I flipped through the entire new book when we got it recently. Excited to see 5.6s, oodles of them! Then I read the descriptions...

But, you reminded me of a trip where we actually grabbed a stick to stick clip. The cliff face rose up from a very slippery, very steep, scree slope. 

Problem was, the slope rocketed downhill parallel to the climbing. I actually belayed sort of half laying down! My partner was concerned about losing his footing before he could even get started. That stick saved a quick ride downhill.

Best, OLH

This morning, saw this notice on Wolf County Search and Rescue FB page serving RRG area:

This afternoon at approximately 7:30pm, WCSART received a 911 call from a climber who had taken a fall at the Graining Fork Nature Preserve. She had apparently missed her first clip and suffered a head injury when she decked out. Team members from both WCSART and Powell County Search & Rescue carried the climber to an awaiting ambulance. Thanks to all responding units and we wish the climber a speedy recovery.

My guess is that carrying a stick clip in  and out would've been easier and cheaper

Old lady H wrote:

No, but I flipped through the entire new book when we got it recently. Excited to see 5.6s, oodles of them! Then I read the descriptions...

There's a couple of good (but sadly way too short) 5.6 and .7 cracks on Window Rock next time you're there if you're still learning gear, or just want good practice.

There was one worse than Delay actually, called Scream Cheese. Super fun route once you're on it, but it sits on a ledge well above the deck. I remember making a subdued "eEEeeee" sound, like screaming under my breath, the entire traverse out to the first bolt. 

 My guess is that carrying a stick clip in  and out would've been easier and cheaper

Your ability to use hindsight along with providing a cost/benefit analysis of carrying a stick is truly remarkable. 

michael s... wrote:

Your ability to use hindsight along with providing a cost/benefit analysis of carrying a stick is truly remarkable. 

Although a little on the snarky side in presenting the thought, amarius was spot on  - had the climber stick clipped the first bolt, the head injury and SAR call-out would likely have been avoided. These days I always carry my stick to a sport climbing crag. A lot of the time I don't use it, but every now and then I'm sure glad I have it.

Mark Waterous wrote:

There's a couple of good (but sadly way too short) 5.6 and .7 cracks on Window Rock next time you're there if you're still learning gear, or just want good practice.

There was one worse than Delay actually, called Scream Cheese. Super fun route once you're on it, but it sits on a ledge well above the deck. I remember making a subdued "eEEeeee" sound, like screaming under my breath, the entire traverse out to the first bolt. 

Thanks! I'm actually barely even started with gear, but I'll be taking it with me and placing it as I can. "Pure" sport is pretty limiting, at least where I am. A little gear is a big plus.

Much of the stick or not may have to do with the type of climber you are. Some people are just super focused on pursuing a climb until they have it nailed, bottom to top. Some by hanging, some not.

And, yes, the last is a traditional approach applied to bolts.. My friend who is a local FA (trad, pre sport) taught me that much. If you fell, you started over from the ground. You also went over the top, the "most interesting" part. The early sport climbs added anchors, but still aimed toward minimal bolts. This is true for most of our climbing near me, and CoR also.

But. My same friend, opposed to bolting originally, now acknowledges it has allowed more of us access to climbing. 

Including kids, grandkids, and old ladies.

A stick clip, and the ability to place some gear, allows the original climb to be preserved as it was, leaving how one approaches that section an individual choice. I personally hope we keep routes as they were, only replacing hardware, or fixing glaring blunders. I do not believe "sport" equals "safe", only the minimum added to create a route where it was not possible before.

For myself, with my really not so great abilities, I am pleased at individual moves that work out. Managing an entire route is still a BFD for me, and, I've had to come up with about 30% more moves than an average climber to accomplish that.

Often, just getting off the ground is a challenge. 

Sooner or later, that stick will be used somewhere part way up, too. Perhaps I may be clipping a whole route down the road, if that's how I can get out to climb in the absence of partners.

The operative word is "stick". Invented side by side with fixed protection.

Best, OLH

Old lady H wrote:

But. My same friend, opposed to bolting originally, now acknowledges it has allowed more of us access to climbing. 

Including kids, grandkids, and old ladies.

Originally - and still true in a lot of areas - bolted sport climbing came about because those cliffs really couldn't be protected any other way.

I personally hope we keep routes as they were, only replacing hardware, or fixing glaring blunders.

Like the last bolt on Delay of Game. The original one was around the arete to the right, with a mantle friction move above it. It was moved to its present location after a woman fell, slid over the frictiony part and flipped onto the vertical part below, smacking the back of her head. She did not survive.

 I do not believe "sport" equals "safe", only the minimum added to create a route where it was not possible before.

Sport was never intended to be "safe", just lower relative risk.

Often, just getting off the ground is a challenge.

I kinda hate the opening moves of Mystery Bolter. Same with I Can't Believe It.

(Routes mentioned are at City of Rocks, ID) 

Almost always stick clip

Marc801 C wrote:

Originally - and still true in a lot of areas - bolted sport climbing came about because those cliffs really couldn't be protected any other way.

Like the last bolt on Delay of Game. The original one was around the arete to the right, with a mantle friction move above it. It was moved to its present location after a woman fell, slid over the frictiony part and flipped onto the vertical part below, smacking the back of her head. She did not survive.

Sport was never intended to be "safe", just lower relative risk.

I kinda hate the opening moves of Mystery Bolter. Same with I Can't Believe It.

(Routes mentioned are at City of Rocks, ID) 

I can't remember which rocks at City, but a couple are still said to have old routes that may not have seen second ascents. "Adventure" routes, Mr. Bingham says. Yikes, but, yay, also!

If any of you trad guys get to Boise, and can deliver a top belay without an anchor, I'll share a little known pair of climbs with ya!

Best, Helen

Stickclipped a slabby polished start of a route this weekend. A fall before the bolt could have resulted in a fall to a scary 300ft scramble. Super exposed area. There's a great place for stick clips I learned!

Eliot Augusto wrote:

I'm a fan of stick clips as long as it is prudent. But huge runouts on hard routes are the way to go, providing the following is true:

1) If I fall, I won't hit a ledge, protrusion or the ground

2) The bolt at the end of the runout isn't in the crux section.

3) Its not completely obvious that the bolts are spaced because of 80's "be a man" style

A 100 ft hard route with 8 bolts and anchors sounds a hell of a lot better than one with 16 bolts, because I can make some assumptions about the route that are easy to confirm from the ground. Like that the bolt placement was thoughtful, I don't have to stop every minute to clip something, or if there is a lot of chalk on the hard route then it isn't bad because people obviously fall on it and it isn't a "death route.

Clipping bolts is about safety, and difficulty of the climb(barely tenable generalization, I know). Stopping on shitty holds to clip something every 6 feet is terrible. But hey, my runout isn't your runout and I don't care how many meters I fall, as long as I don't hit things. You also swing back into the wall more gently with a longer fall.

if there was literally double the # of clips...and you feel like you aren't steady at one...you could just skip them no?

you're right though...if the fall is ultra safe...then no worries about run outs

Jef Anstey wrote:

I think it's dumb as hell when people develop hard routes with huge run outs or high first bolts (if intended to climb not stick clip) 

Jef, how many routes have you developed? Asking legitimately, not looking to start shit.

Never did it until this season at Rumney.  Facing a first bolt that was high up and required throwing a heel, realized I didn't want to risk falling on my head to stroke my ego.  Might be a style flaw but way better than a broke something.

Jef Anstey wrote:

if there was literally double the # of clips...and you feel like you aren't steady at one...you could just skip them no?

you're right though...if the fall is ultra safe...then no worries about run outs

I could skip them, you are right. I'm about to make a sweeping generalization though: Most routes that I've encountered that I consider over bolted don't have as thoughtful of bolt placements. I realize that isn't the case for every climb with a lot of bolts. But, for the ones that do I have a little thought in my head that just keeps saying, "They didn't think about the fall on all these bolts, or they did and they see something I don't. I better clip them all!" Again, I'm about surviving intact to climb another day. I'm the only person I have to please climbing, and I've not climbed routes just because it "didn't feel right" at the base. 

Mason Stone wrote:

Jef and Eliot,

I agree to an extent, go climb Sea of Holes or Malice in bucketland, I don't think they will kill you but falling will hurt. 

But, I did make a generalization and acknowledged it. It wasn't meant to be applied to every bolted climb as ironclad truth. If there is one thing I've learned in climbing, there is an exception to every rule. Except keeping a hand on the brake strand. There shouldn't be an expcetion to that.