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The Firefly by DCMountaineering (quickdraw retrieval device)

stolo · · Lake Norman, NC · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 214

Not sure if I would use it, but cool idea

Artem B · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0
Joe Prescott wrote:

Question for you Artem B. Would you re-use that sling that you pulled the (un-weighted) rope through? Also, this can only be done if you are within 1/3 of your rope length from the ground in normal situation. I've brainstormed ways to do this with a coated large diameter cable or wedge that is weighted on one side and tapered somehow, so that when you pull your rope through the basket hitched smooth cable (or whatever), it falls off of the bolt. Would be fail-safe and could only fall off once the rope is through.

You can load the middle of your rope and untie once you're on rap so if you can rap off a route then you can do this. 

I'll take a look at the dyneema after I pull the rope and re-use it yes. Puling an unweighted rope through sling isn't something I'm terribly worried about. But again, YER GANNA DIE

The only time I won't do this is if it's multi-pitch and I'm bailing because you're likely to lose the sling/carabiner when it falls far past you. If you want to be cute you can bring a peice of string to retrieve it but that's getting contrived again ; )

Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270
Artem B wrote:

1) YER GANNA DIE

2) Clip in directly to the bolt. 

3) Remove quickdraw. 

4) Basket hitch dyneema to the hanger, clip a carabiner/quickdraws to ONE strand of the dyneema. 

5) Pull up some rope. Thread rope through both loops of dyneema. 

6) Rap off said rope. 

7) When you pull the rope the weight of the carabiner will pull the dyneema out of the hanger and you've now rapped off a bolt and left nothing behind.

EDIT: You know what would be even sicker if you want to over-engineer it. A carabiner which opens upwards with an encrypted and secure one-channel remote control which opens it. Imagine what you can do with that. Bail off a climb easily. Always do full-length single rope rapells. Set it up to secretly make the top-rope anchor fall apart while your nemesis is hang-dogging. It's the perfect device.

This is really cool. Also just get the stick clip/unclip drone attachment

Joe Prescott · · Berlin Germany · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 6
Artem B wrote:

You can load the middle of your rope and untie once you're on rap so if you can rap off a route then you can do this. 

I'll take a look at the dyneema after I pull the rope and re-use it yes. Puling an unweighted rope through sling isn't something I'm terribly worried about. But again, YER GANNA DIE

The only time I won't do this is if it's multi-pitch and I'm bailing because you're likely to lose the sling/carabiner when it falls far past you. If you want to be cute you can bring a peice of string to retrieve it but that's getting contrived again ; )

Yes, I've done this with a short piece of webbing and I realize you untie, but the rope still goes from the ground, up to you, back to the ground, then back up to the carabiner/sling, thus being able to only do this 1/3 of your total rope length up a route (the way I've done it). That's why it'd be nice to have something that fell off the bolt when you pulled the rope, so you could rap 1/2 rope length.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Joe Prescott wrote:

Yes, I've done this with a short piece of webbing and I realize you untie, but the rope still goes from the ground, up to you, back to the ground, then back up to the carabiner/sling, thus being able to only do this 1/3 of your total rope length up a route (the way I've done it). That's why it'd be nice to have something that fell off the bolt when you pulled the rope, so you could rap 1/2 rope length.

well, you can do the same thing, but instead of using the rope to tie to the sling, just carry a 35m piece of string like on the firefly, then you can tie the string to the webbing to retrieve it and you don't have to buy the firefly.

Artem B · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0
Joe Prescott wrote:

Yes, I've done this with a short piece of webbing and I realize you untie, but the rope still goes from the ground, up to you, back to the ground, then back up to the carabiner/sling, thus being able to only do this 1/3 of your total rope length up a route (the way I've done it). That's why it'd be nice to have something that fell off the bolt when you pulled the rope, so you could rap 1/2 rope length.

I don't necessarily use a pull line like you're describing. The carabiner is clipped to one strand of the basket hitch; the weight of the carabiner will pull the sling through the hanger as soon as the rope is off of it.

Joe Prescott · · Berlin Germany · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 6

Exactly what I was going to say next - leading the witness. Was thinking you could use a super nice cable loop that was re-usable and smooth for rope pulling, but would still pull through the bolt, that you could have a much better system than this (fail-safe as it can only come off after the rope is pulled). Either use a little pull cord or have it somehow fall off the bolt. I'm positive someone here could engineer something that is fail-safe that would slide out of a bolt once the rope is pulled. I have a few rough ideas, ut in the long run, bail biners work great and have multiple uses.

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981

I look forward to seeing this device show up in the articles in future editions of Accidents in North American Climbing.

Jon Frisby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 270
kevin deweese wrote:

I look forward to seeing this device show up in the articles in future editions of Accidents in North American Climbing.

That's really fucked up dude

Alex Temus · · Lehi, UT · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 362

I look forward to seeing this device show up in future editions of freedom of the hills!

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Interesting but it's actually possible to do what this device does with just cord alone. Just, I dont think anyone does it because no one wants to carry around 100' of cord with them and it's just not worth it when bail biners are so cheap anyway.

beensandbagged · · smallest state · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 0

Maybe bailing off a climb should cost something.

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25

Cuz the barrier to entry of an overbolted sport line wasn't low enough already.  If you have given up on any boldness in the first place, just go do a TR.  we are already calling pink points red, might as well call yellow points red points too.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I think it is a cute bit of engineering that has little or no place in most climber's arsenals of tricks, and comes with the possibility of some potentially nasty, possibly fatal gotcha's.  It is also part of a trend, involving fixed anchors, gear, and attitudes, that encourages people to start up things they aren't ready for under the assumption that they can always bail, and bailling will be both easy and cheap.  This trend sometimes gets parties into trouble, and frequently crowds routes with people who shouldn't be on them, slowing and possibly endangering those whose skills are appropriate. 

John Hegyes mentions opening the carabiner you are hanging on.  Although 8 kN strength is fine for just hanging on, two problems remain, both related to the type of carabiner being used.  (1) It might be hard to open a weighted carabiner.  (2) Much more dangerous, the weighted carabiner might not fully close after being opened---which might not be noticed---and then the 8 kN gate-open rating is looking sketchy.  So for openers, the device should be re-engineered with some sort of hinged clamp so that it can be installed without opening the carabiner the climber is hanging from. 

But this is a detail, and there are others that have been or could be mentioned.  But no modification to the gadget is going to change the fact that the system encourages lowering off a single piece without a backup on the next piece down.  The prusik system might or might not work, in my opinion...

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
rgold wrote:

I'm interested in hearing more about your take on this - I don't really do the type of climbing/bailing that this technique would be useful for so I've never tried it hands-on, but based on the diagrams and what I've read it makes sense to me and I've filed it away as a potentially useful technique. What's your concern with it, that the prusik may not catch?

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
John Wilder wrote:

Well...its a prusik catching a lead fall if the bolt pops. 

Yep, understood - that's how the system is intended to work. I'm interested to hear rgold's concerns with it and any data or experience behind those concerns. 

MP · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 2
rgold wrote:

I think it is a cute bit of engineering that has little or no place in most climber's arsenals of tricks, and comes with the possibility of some potentially nasty, possibly fatal gotcha's.  It is also part of a trend, involving fixed anchors, gear, and attitudes, that encourages people to start up things they aren't ready for under the assumption that they can always bail, and bailling will be both easy and cheap.  This trend sometimes gets parties into trouble, and frequently crowds routes with people who shouldn't be on them, slowing and possibly endangering those whose skills are appropriate. 

Rgold on the money, as usual. 

A couple thoughts on the mechanics of this device

1) the pullcord diameter is super thin-- guaranteed to get tangled

2) It will never be as safe or as  price-competitive with bootied/old carabiners

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
John Wilder wrote:

A bit of Googling around will get you enough data to form your own opinion. Turns out prusiks have been tested quite a bit for dynamic and static loading. 

Personally, based on the data I found, I wouldn't use it. Much less stressful to either aid out or lower off two carabiners. 

Yep, thanks, I know how to both google and form opinions. I was specifically interested in hearing more from rgold. If he's interested in sharing more of his thoughts. 

Jon Rhoderick · · Redmond, OR · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 966

I'm not the same wealth of knowledge as rgold, but in my search and rescue organization we have seen prussiks melt until they cut at or below 1KN when they don't catch and lots of rope run through. A grigri is safer, but still I wouldn't recommend this tactic.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Em Cos wrote:

I'm interested in hearing more about your take on this - I don't really do the type of climbing/bailing that this technique would be useful for so I've never tried it hands-on, but based on the diagrams and what I've read it makes sense to me and I've filed it away as a potentially useful technique. What's your concern with it, that the prusik may not catch?

I've never had to bail from a top piece in this way; I'm with Marc on the concept of bailing upwards.   

I'm not convinced, from tests I've read over a period of years, that a prusik will reliably hold an actual leader fall; not grabbing, melting, and stripping the rope sheath seem to be possibilities that have occurred in tests and in the field.  That said, Petzl recommends the technique and says 

"...tested on a 4m fall with an 80 kg weight using a 7mm prusik cordelette and a 9.7mm rope...fall arrested, cordelette and rope intact."

I haven't seen any details of the Petzl test.  Presumably the fall factor influences the outcome, but they only report the fall height. I don't know if they pretightened the knot, or left it looser, the way it would be for sliding down the rope during lowering.  Since they used a weight and not a human, we can be sure that the knot was not being actively slid down the rope when the fall load occurred.  

And there is a serious concern, well-documented in the context of rappelling with a prusik above the device, that a prusik will not in general grab if the hand sliding it doesn't release the knot, and it is exceptionally difficult for climbers to let go when a sudden fall occurs, even if, as in the testing situation, they know that the drop is coming.  

So for all these reasons, I have my doubts about the effectiveness of the technique, Petzl's support notwithstanding.

In an emergency situation, the prusik backup is probably better than nothing, and so is worth knowing about, even though stripping the rope sheath would be scary, and the probability of failing to release the knot is high.  Not having a 7mm cordelette might be an issue; I carry 6mm prusik loops, and they are probably less reliable than 7mm for this purpose.  The rescue folks use tandem prusiks for belay backups; this is probably a good idea if you have to use this system on a climb.

As something one does in a routine way, i.e. attempting a route, plannng, if necessary, to bail off a single piece with the prusik backup---that's a bit too sketchy for me. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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