"Projecting" on Gear

There is no "definition" of trad. Or sport. These things are ideas, descriptions of contemporary practice. They are not fixed, can evolve over time. Influence of sport on trad is logical and thus it happened. 

Healey's dogmatic "definition" is not shared widely. I gave the example of Echo Wall on Ben Nevis. One of the most difficult (and very dangerous) trad climbs. Dave McLeod describes his climb as a trad climb. There are thousends of trad climbs opened an repeated with similar sport climbing tactics. 

The Brits subdivide trad in several categories. On sight, ground up, but also headpointing which uses sport climbing tactics like rehearsel on toprope. But they sure lump them all under trad. 

The world changes. Always has, always will. 

You guys are ridiculous. Climb however you want, but resting doesn't mean you didn't climb a route. It means you didn't redpoint it, or style it or or climb it clean or whatever hip word you want. But if someone climbs to the top of a route, they--by definition--"climbed" the route. If someone is trad climbing, and takes, they don't instantly become a sport climber on the route as you're suggesting! It's like the old crusties here aged enough to became millennial MEMErs with their silly definitions. If you leave the ground "trad climbing" you do not become a sport climber mid-route by taking haha. If you don't use gear to make a move, you still free climbed it. You may not do it clean--with a mid-way rest--but you still got to the top. That was your goal and you accomplished it. If your goal is to climb it clean, then try again. 

What if I build a belay midway because I get tired? Does that still count? What if I link two pitches as one, and you climb it in two? Are you an aid climber now!?! Don't answer these questions.. just recognize how ridiculous this petty definition debate is. Go outside and have fun.

get off my yard/route you damned whippersnappers!

Ancent wrote:

You guys are ridiculous. Climb however you want, but resting doesn't mean you didn't climb a route. It means you didn't redpoint it, or style it or or climb it clean or whatever hip word you want. But if someone climbs to the top of a route, they--by definition--"climbed" the route. If someone is trad climbing, and takes, they don't instantly become a sport climber on the route as you're suggesting! It's like the old crusties here aged enough to became millennial MEMErs with their silly definitions. If you leave the ground "trad climbing" you do not become a sport climber mid-route by taking haha. If you don't use gear to make a move, you still free climbed it. You may not do it clean--with a mid-way rest--but you still got to the top. That was your goal and you accomplished it. If your goal is to climb it clean, then try again. 

What if I build a belay midway because I get tired? Does that still count? What if I link two pitches as one, and you climb it in two? Are you an aid climber now!?! Don't answer these questions.. just recognize how ridiculous this petty definition debate is. Go outside and have fun.

This thread is now closed. Kaput. Finished. 

Now everyone jstfu!

(I wish)

What if I build a belay midway because I get tired? Does that still count?

This right here.  

I had the same thought earlier, but expanded ad nauseum.  What if I built a belay every 10'?  Can I then free my new 20 pitch route in sections??!?

Jon Rhoderick wrote:

Joe Healy, why don't you climb one of these routes that you slag off but can't actually do (I could name a couple of them you don't like at Beacon) THEN open your mouth on someone else's climbing ability...

Yes, it was a long time ago, but you might like to research just who's abilities you are insulting.

Then consider what routes you have on the Yosemite list.

Abrasive on MP? Sure. A piker? Not hardly.

Best, OLH

MPers? All I would ask is some kindness if we ever have a chance to climb, and to not belittle the efforts of others. YMMV, is true for all of us, and it changes with time and circumstances.

I would quite happily climb with anyone arguing in this thread, probably learn heaps and, most importantly, have a good time.

Best, OLH

Old lady H wrote:

MPers? All I would ask is some kindness if we ever have a chance to climb, and to not belittle the efforts of others. YMMV, is true for all of us, and it changes with time and circumstances.

I would quite happily climb with anyone arguing in this thread, probably learn heaps and, most importantly, have a good time.

Best, OLH

Are you the assigned mediator? Stay out of this domestic squabble, or we'll all turn on you. Enough of this "be nice" nonsense. :)

From the other thread, but appropriate here: "I think people can climb any way they want as long as they don't screw it up for me or lie about it afterwards.  When they talk about "sending",  "red point", "pink point", "brown point" I just sort of shut off my brain or day dream about something else."

FrankPS wrote:

Are you the assigned mediator? Stay out of this domestic squabble, or we'll all turn on you. Enough of this "be nice" nonsense. :)

Get off my lawn Frank. Mow the sucker, too, would ya?

:-P

Old lady H wrote:

Get off my lawn Frank. Mow the sucker, too, would ya?

:-P

That's better.

Old lady H wrote:

Get off my lawn Frank. Mow the sucker, too, would ya?

:-P

And pick up the bananas while yer at it....

Is it aid if you hook a knob with your cane and weigh it, inbetwixt shaking it at all the young guns breaking the aforementioned trad rules on adjacent routes?  Asking for a friend...

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

There is no "definition" of trad. Or sport. These things are ideas, descriptions of contemporary practice. They are not fixed, can evolve over time. Influence of sport on trad is logical and thus it happened. 

Utter nonsense, they are immutable descriptions of practices and tactics. And, hey, let's distill them down to their simplest terms:

• Sport: working out hard and / or scary moves resting on the rope
• Trad: working out hard and / or scary moves while actually climbing

Those were and remain the primary distinction between the two activities and why climbing heatedly split into two camps in the early 80's - bolts and bolting ran a distant if irritating second place as a concern in that dispute.

Those terms aren't open to evolution or opinion, they are what they are. What has evolved is climbers and their definition of [modern] 'climbing'. For some time now pretty much all climbers have come up through gyms and sport. What climbing 'is' to the vast majority of you is resting on the rope to figure out the moves and then doing them - otherwise known as sport climbing. In fact, most of you probably haven't experienced climbing as anything but when tied in.

But there is, however vanishingly small, a cadre still dedicated to the other way - figuring out hard and scary moves on the sharp end while actually climbing (and falling). I know, I know - preposterous and ridiculous - who would do such a stupid, unsafe and difficult thing? Well, that is trad climbing - figuring it out while on lead, the essence of free climbing. Again, I get that's entirely foreign and bordering on inconceivable, but it is what it is (and it is hard). You either have the goods to do it or you don't. Maybe the more adventurous of you should consider giving it a trial run and reporting back.

So yeah, dogging your way up on gear? Your sport climbing on gear - sprad climbing - not trad climbing, the definition of which really isn't open to evolving or being mutated into whatever you want or need it to be at the moment or to suit your 'style'.

"Early eighties". 

That about sums it up. We live in 2017 now. 

And about hard and scary. I give the Echo Wall example once again. 8c+ on marginal gear in a mountain environment. None of your eighties friends came anywhere close to that. It needed sport climbing tactics to work out the sequence so Dave didn't die on the lead attempt. It still is trad ( in headpointing style)  

Just like a steamengine isn't called a dieselengine when it uses diesel to heat up the kettle. 

This debate is about on the level of arguing about wether the word "bank" refers a place to get cash or the side of a river. Healyje's definition of trad refers to climbers and the style they use. The usual contemporary use of the term refers to climbs, specifically, to how they are protected, and then secondarily to climbers and the activity of climbing without commenting on style. There is confusion because Healyje's use has almost completely fallen out of use, but the two uses aren't incompatible. You could sensibly say, "He just hangdogged his way up that trad climb" or "She's such a traditional climber, even on clip-ups she lowers right to the ground if she falls off."

Agree completely Bryce. The current "defenition" of trad an sport is about the protection. Within these two climbing categories there are different styles. Onsight certainly is a better style then headpointing. Likewise in sport, flash is better style then redpointing. Serious climbers try to do a climb in the best possible style they are capable of. 

This is the worst thread ever. Take it to page 12 boys.

Healyje wrote:

Those terms aren't open to evolution or opinion, they are what they are. 

Those terms, like all of language are absolutely subject to change over time. Language evolves. And when enough people share the same opinion of what they mean, it becomes an acceptable (though not necessarily the only) meaning of the word. 

Healyje wrote:

Utter nonsense, they are immutable descriptions of practices and tactics. And, hey, let's distill them down to their simplest terms:

• Sport: working out hard and / or scary moves resting on the rope
• Trad: working out hard and / or scary moves while actually climbing

Those were and remain the primary distinction between the two activities and why climbing heatedly split into two camps in the early 80's - bolts and bolting ran a distant if irritating second place as a concern in that dispute.

Those terms aren't open to evolution or opinion, they are what they are. 

With apologies to Lewis Carroll-

'There's trad for you!' (said Humpty Dumpty)

'I don't know what you mean by "trad",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

'But "trad" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they're the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

'Would you tell me please,' said Alice, 'what that means?'

'Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. 'I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'