Grade of Hypothetical Crack Climb

Bowens wrote:

The climber's hands, obviously.

Ok, but the question is about grades, and I've never seen a climb listed with variable grades according to hand size. If you're wondering how it will compare to typical outdoor grades, this is a relevant question. 

Em Cos wrote:

Ok, but the question is about grades, and I've never seen a climb listed with variable grades according to hand size. If you're wondering how it will compare to typical outdoor grades, this is a relevant question. 

That's kind of the point of my question.  How would you rate the difficulty of a climb that is perfect hands, pure crack?  

Depends on what you mean by "perfect hands". If your hand size matches that of the guidebook author, or the majority from whom the consensus grade is drawn, probably ~5.8. If not, maybe as high as 5.11a or so. 

Em Cos wrote:

Depends on what you mean by "perfect hands". If your hand size matches that of the guidebook author, or the majority from whom the consensus grade is drawn, probably ~5.8. If not, maybe as high as 5.11a or so. 

I mean perfect hand jams for me.  Do people use the term to mean something else?

Bowens wrote:

I mean perfect hand jams for me.  Do people use the term to mean something else?

No, people use the term to mean perfect hand jams for themselves. Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the grade of the climb if the person/people who graded it have different size hands than you. So if you say "perfect hand jams for you", without us knowing what size hands you have, it's impossible for us to tell you what that likely equates to in terms of grades you might find on equivalent outdoor climbs. 

For example, I climbed a crack in Indian creek with "perfect hand jams" (for me). It felt pretty easy. It was graded 5.11a in the guidebook, similar on MP. Then I climbed a crack that was 2 cam sizes up from "perfect hands". It felt significantly harder and was graded 5.9. 

If you're asking what a climb with "perfect hand jams" (for you) is likely to be rated so you have a useful comparison for what you'll find outside, we can't answer that. If you don't care about the guidebook or consensus grade, then just climb it and call it whatever grade it feels like to you. 

If you're asking something different then I've totally misunderstood the point of your question so ignore everything I've said. 

Bowens wrote:

This may be a strange question, but humor me.  

If you have a hypothetical pure crack climb that is a splitter perfect hands crack, 90 degrees vertical, that must be climbed 100% in the crack, what difficulty/grade would you say it is?  

It’s only difficult if you can’t do it

then you get an F

Yes we get it...crack climbing depends on hand size, face climbing depends on height and wingspan, pockets depend on finger size etc etc etc. Let's assume an average size person and call "perfect hands" a 2-inch wide crack. Sure, this is a 5.10+ fist crack for some micro-crushers, and 5.11- thin hands for Shaq, but...

A 20m long, dead vertical, splitter 2" crack should be 5.10- (imagine climbing it on lead). Once comfortable at the style it will feel 5.8.

I interpreted this as Gold Camelots, as that tends to be what guidebooks refer to as “perfect hands” in my experience at least.

Creed A wrote:

Not trolling. The IC 9s are usually great hand jams, less than 20m, with features, and less than vertical. 

Blue Sun is my proposed straightforward 5.10. 

Hmm... yeah, I'll give you that.  Can you name another, or is that just a single featherbagged route?

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/le-petit-arbre/105764364   1st pitch with "perfect hands" is rated 5.6. Not quite 90deg, but awfully close. Some "cheater feet" on the sides, but they only help if you don't know how to shove a foot in a crack. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/bunny-slope/105930583   5.9. MP description says "low angled", but I've no idea where that come from. As I remember from years back, the crux section is pretty close to dead vertical.

If the crack is leaning badly left or right, you might need to add up to 1+ grade on these numbers. 

There's some mentioning of hypothetical route length previously. Isn't YDS supposed to be rating "the hardest move", which should be independent of route length? 

Patrik wrote:

This seems to be the case with a lot of Indian Creek routes as well.

GabeO wrote:

Hmm... yeah, I'll give you that.  Can you name another, or is that just a single featherbagged route?

I had to think for a while to come up with that one. 

However, I do think the grades at Indian Creek are featherbagged. Or more accurately, they are sandbagged, but the sandbag has a great big hole in it. When you first approach a new size (personal example: red camalots), it feels super sandbagged and difficult. The more you climb that size, the lighter the sandbag gets until eventually the bag is empty ... or maybe filled with helium. (I'm taking this metaphor to some places.) Once you learn the technique, the routes feel easy for the grade. Indian Creek is basically the only place where I consistently onsight 11s. 

Nick Sweeney wrote:

Well if it's in a gym, who cares?

+1

GabeO wrote:

Maybe you're joking, and certainly you're trolling, but I'll bite.  I can think of plenty of 5.9s at the Creek that are way more involved and tricky than the climb described by the OP that are rated 5.9.  Can you give an example of a 5.10 at the Creek that's that straightforward?

Anyway...

My answer:  5.9-

GO

Supercrack of the desert 

A5 if you hypothetically die trying to aid it

I think what he means is almost like a crack machine fit for perfect hand size.

Grades only matter to a certain point. They are subjective to the person who established the climb, the area the climb is located and numerous other factors. There’s a saying in surfing, when in doubt don’t go out. If you’re concerned about safety, hire a guid. 

Ryan Moss wrote:

Grades only matter to a certain point. They are subjective to the person who established the climb, the area the climb is located and numerous other factors. There’s a saying in surfing, when in doubt don’t go out. If you’re concerned about safety, hire a guid. 

It’s likely the OP got his answer 5 years ago when he posted the conjecture. 

B Owens wrote:

Let's say 20 meters.  

Edit: Let's also say it's in a gym (because it is).  

60 feet of perfect splitter vertical hands is 5.8 every day of the week.