Moonlight buttress

Looking for a partner, end of October 

I'm not free, but thought I'd chime in that end of Oct. is a good time to go. I was on Moonlight 2 years ago on Halloween. The river was low and easy to cross. Temps were cool, but not too cold. Have fun!

Im down for moonlight sometime in october, hit me up 951-203-0954

Free or aid?

Save Mioonlight for a free climb someday - it's boring as an aid climb. Way more fun to do Touchstone, Spaceshot, or any of the other classic Zion walls instead.

Rich Brereton wrote:

Save Mioonlight for a free climb someday - it's boring as an aid climb. Way more fun to do Touchstone, Spaceshot, or any of the other classic Zion walls instead.

Word.  It's way past time that all climbers should start treating aiding Moonlight the same way we would treat someone aiding Astroman.

Pnelson wrote:

Word.  It's way past time that all climbers should start treating aiding Moonlight the same way we would treat someone aiding Astroman.

Nope. It goes free at 5.12c/d. I don't know too many people that can climb 5.12c/d on gear. It is still an aid climb and a fun one at that. I do not agree with the idea that just because the elite level of climbers can free something that it is now removed as an option for the regular mass of climbers. 

Ryan Hamilton wrote:

Nope. It goes free at 5.12c/d.

Not sure if it's still that hard, but it used to be harder. And with the rate aid climbers are gang banging the route, it'll be 5.12- before long.

reboot wrote:

Not sure if it's still that hard, but it used to be harder. And with the rate aid climbers are gang banging the route, it'll be 5.12- before long.

Has the rate on that increased greatly as of late?
Are they not doing it clean-aid?
Is there something you are seeing change?
It was clean aid 20+ years ago when I did it.  

http://eveningsends.com/when-do-aid-climbs-stop-being-aid-climbs/

Tony, the thinking is that all that clean aid traffic gouges the soft Navajo sandstone and widens the cracks, particularly the crux pitch.

See Mikey Schaefer's comment on the route page from last October: https://www.mountainproject.com/v/106138026?search=1&type=route&method=resultsPage&query=moonlight%20buttress

There are much better aid trade routes in Zion where this aid vs. free conflict doesn't exist, so why not go aid the better routes? Win-win.

reboot wrote:

Not sure if it's still that hard, but it used to be harder. And with the rate aid climbers are gang banging the route, it'll be 5.12- before long.

I think you're playing up the amount of damage that aid climbers make. They are not making gaping holes all over the route. Clean aid is relatively kind to the rock. I'm pretty sure that the relative difficulty is about the same as it has has been since it was established as an aid climb. When the piton scars made it possible for someone to free climb it. Also, I think you're overstating the number of people aid climbing it. There just aren't that many people that aid climb. 

Ryan Hamilton wrote:

Nope. It goes free at 5.12c/d. I don't know too many people that can climb 5.12c/d on gear. It is still an aid climb and a fun one at that. I do not agree with the idea that just because the elite level of climbers can free something that it is now removed as an option for the regular mass of climbers. 

5.12c/d is nowhere near "elite," and Moonlight does not have a single move even remotely close to 5.12+.

More important, it started becoming lame to do Astroman aid-style probably in the mid-90s.  At that time, the proportion of climbers who could do Astroman more or less free was probably about the same as the proportion of climbers today who could do Moonlight more or less free.  

I'm not saying that these routes are only for people capable of onsighting them, or even freeing them over time, only that people hopping on them with aiders, ascenders, and bivy gear should be aware that they're causing a huge clusterfuck.  If you want to do Moonlight, get better at climbing 5.11a cracks and pulling on gear.  It's not that hard.

Pnelson wrote:

I'm not saying that these routes are only for people capable of onsighting them, or even freeing them over time, only that people hopping on them with aiders, ascenders, and bivy gear should be aware that they're causing a huge clusterfuck.  If you want to do Moonlight, get better at climbing 5.11a cracks and pulling on gear.  It's not that hard.

Maybe the free climbers should just get up earlier?

mediocre wrote:

Maybe the free climbers should just get up earlier?

There is NO getting up earlier when people drag portaledges up it.

I might agree with the concept of folks saving this for those trying to free it if the folks actually trying to do that weren't dogging, lowering, ticking every jam and minor foothold, inspecting on rap, etc., etc. People's goals often far exceed their abilities.  I don't see the need to leave the route open for some guy who thinks he's honed because he's done one .11+ at Indian Creek.

Edit: having said that, I'd never advocate someone aiding Astroman or the like.  I haven't done Astroman precisely because I felt I shouldn't try it until I could reasonably onsight it.  My point was that, with gyms and sport climbing, many people have unrealistic beliefs on what they can reasonably send when doing trad.

I agree that aiding moonlight isn't the preferred style considering it's relative accessibility as a free climb. That having been said, I think that free climbers go a bit too far separating themselves from the aid climbers and attributing all the blame of the route changing to those who aren't free climbing. Two points here are worth keeping in mind: 1. the stone in Zion is extremely soft; to some extent these routes are consumable goods and 2. Hauling on the route isn't damage-free (which a team aiding in a day wouldn't have to do) and it's not uncommon for free climbing aspirants to overnight on a portaledge to spend two days working the pitches to get the redpoint. 

I'm not saying that this is a great wall for learning to aid climb; it's not. Please consider learning bigwall climbing on any of the other amazing (frequently empty) routes close by. But too much is made of the style and not whether you did the route in 1 day or 2. 

I clean-aided moonlight, had a blast. I bet the free climbers who worked the fuck out of the routes do more damage than clean-aiders.

Not sure, but I would guess that shuffling hands up and down these cracks does at least as much damage as placing gear? I would think that each free attempt does more damage than the clean aid attempts. look at the Creek routes like Way Rambo. I could be wrong. Also, I would guess more time is spent on the route (per team) for an average free attempt after working pitches, ticking sequences, etc. than the average aid team. Averages here, not the hardmen teams that can walk up to it and free it onsight. I haven's aided it but would love to free it someday. I agree it looks boring compared to P Sun, Spaceshot, etc (which I have done).

divnamite wrote:

edited: to say ...I'm also pretty much talking out my ass, as Ive never been up it...

I've climbed Moonlight half a dozen times. It is a great experience whether you free, aid or a do bit of both. There is no right or wrong way to climb it. I'm tired of people stating that it is only a free route. It's a shared resource and everyone has the right to climb it. Just be aware of the impact you are having on the resource and other climbers and learn to share. ML shouldn't be anyone's first climb in Zion. Respect the rock and learn to climb on other formations. If you are learning to aid dial your systems firs and then do PS.

The way I prefer to climb it is on day one, after the people doing it in a day have passed, is to climb to the top of rocker block at the base of the dihedral and rap off straight down to the ground. Come back early the next morning and jug to the anchors and then push for the top. It makes it a very doable route for the average jo or joe.

Have fun out there. 

Just so y'all know, my original comments were concerned less with damaging the rock and more with preventing traffic jams.  And I agree that folks ticking and hang-dogging (seriously, who needs to tick splitter cracks?) can clog the route just as much as aiders.