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More than one rappel on single pitch route?

Joe Prescott · · Berlin Germany · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 6

I think you'll cause more accidents by dumbing down a climbing area for the people that actually learn there and go off to climb other places. Climbing is pretty standard throughout the US and you should be able to go crag to crag and not have different standards (regarding safety and common climbing smarts, not grading and bolting ethics). 

Michael Swanson · · Oregon · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 0
Eric Engberg wrote:

Emmett may be making an extreme example here - he is an excitable boy - but the first hanger being gold at Farley is pretty well understood and communicated there.  I think its all well and good to suggest that in a predominately trad enviroment (Gunks, Yosemite, etc.) that it is reasonable to expect people to know how to cope with getting down regardless of rope length and anchor spacing.  But in a sport situation where you are already relying on others to have prepared the route for you it's reasonable that there be some additional clues at the base as to what will be involved.  Maybe we can take a clue from the Euros (we certainly could in a lot of more important areas then climbing - but lets not digress...) and mark name, grade and length at the base - is that really going to ruin things for you purists at an area that is already grid bolted and ticked?

I do agree that trying to accomodate a certain rope length as the standard is futile.  My first routes were done on 120 feet of Goldline - going to 150 feet was revolutionary - and heavy.

There are numerous ways to mitigate needing to know the length of a route beforehand. Have the belayer watch for the middle marker, if you pass halfway on the rope then you know that you'll need to do a 2-rope rap or lower, or use intermediate anchors. Not prepared for that? Stop and lower down. No middle marker? TIE A KNOT AT THE END OF THE ROPE, you are guranteed to not be dropped by your belayer. Climbing outside involves inherent risks which may be avoided, and if someone isn't prepared for those reasonable risks then that's not the fault of the route developer.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 423

Obviously there are ways to deal with not knowing route length, and if you aren't tying knots in the end of your rope before you lead or rappel, you're not very smart. But it's still very annoying if you reach the end of your rope, especially on a challenging lead or hanging rap. Just because self-rescue is possible and I can do it doesn't mean I want to do it.

As the route developer, anything you do to develop a route within reason and local ethics is a gift, but there are definitely some things a route developer can do which are a nicer gift than others. I don't think it's unreasonable to hope (but not expect!) that a developer will put in rap anchors around the middle of routes longer than 35m if a convenient walkoff isn't available.

Will Haden · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 90

Where is this 35m cliff in MO that the last 5m isn't pure shit and worth the trouble? 

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
jktinst wrote:

I'm trying to imagine a situation and sequence of actions where this sentence would make sense and I can't. If the belayer locks off the belay device and starts climbing to be able to keep lowering the climber, he's not free soloing by any stretch.

Depends on how you look at it he didn't have a knot at the end of the rope and he was climbing I guess with me as a counter balance but if he had let go the rope would have gone through the belay device and he would have hit the ground along with me. He could have probably tied a knot at the end before he started climbing but the first few feet was really easy climbing so it was safer to just climb it without trying to tie a knot at the end. Sure we could have tied a knot at the end of the rope but honestly how many people really do that on single pitch climbs? Area we were climbing at everything else can be done with a 60m single pitch so just kinda unexpected that single climb needed more.

The guide book for the area didn't even mention the need for a 70m and there was another group that I guess had a 70m just climbed it before us and lowered down like we were trying to do. Guess you should not assume everyone is using a 60m. Anyway the way the route was intended to be climb was on a 60m but you were suppose to have your second clean it while belaying them up and than with the traverse cleaned you can rappel down without a problem on a 60m.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
ViperScale wrote: He could have probably tied a knot at the end before he started climbing but the first few feet was really easy climbing so it was safer to just climb it without trying to tie a knot at the end. 

This is the stupidest thing in this thread. Anyone who thinks for a second that no knot is in any way or shape safer really, REALLY needs to get smart or get out of the sport.

Am I harsh? You bet. My irritation at this level of ignorance and callousness comes from having too many friends go off the end of un-knotted ropes.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Jake Jones wrote:

Like tie a knot in the end of your rope if you're unsure how tall the route is, or because that should be something that one does every time?  These are entry-level, bare minimum, basic things we're talking about here.  Protecting people from themselves isn't the answer.  Let's say an anchor is put up half way.  Great.  Now what happens to the people that know even less than the ones we're suspecting will lower off the end of a rope.  Do you think someone that lacks the knowledge to tie a knot in the end of a rope, or get out of a situation where the rope is shorter than the route will know how to utilize that?  I'm going with no.  Yet if one simple, basic tenet of outdoor single pitch climbing is utilized, then it's a non issue.  Taking the risk and self-reliance out of climbing will make climbing not climbing anymore.  I don't want to see that, and it's already headed that way.

How many times have you personally dealt with the rope jammed in your belay device and your climbing hanging 30 feet up and 20 feet out?  Preferable to you climber laying in a heap on the ground and the belay end of the rope 30 feet up for sure - but not ideal.  How many times have you dealt with an over an over zealous partner pulling the rope with the knot still in it?  That can be more then a minor inconvenience when you go to great lengths to remedy it in the dark/rain/end of the day rush.  Preferable to injury in the first place but maybe resulting in one anyway.  Its SPORT climbing.  You don't need to preserve the adventure.

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

if you have to ask this question on the internet fer christs sake PLEASE give up your drill!!! Its kind of nice when the folks putting up the new routes are experts with good vision and route finding sense. 

climberish · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Nick Goldsmith wrote:

if you have to ask this question on the internet fer christs sake PLEASE give up your drill!!! Its kind of nice when the folks putting up the new routes are experts with good vision and route finding sense. 

for reaaaaaaaaal! This is hilarious though, please MP, do not let this thread die...

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669

Some day there will be folks who only own 70m ropes whining about the new 40m routes

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

I think they cut a special really long rope for kai lightner when he was in spain so he could do some 2 pitch routes with a single rope. He was scared of doing multi pitch.

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
Darren Mabe wrote:

Some day there will be folks who only own 70m ropes whining about the new 40m routes

That day has already arrived, my friend. 

At a local crag...  a new 5.10 sport climb.... the stone was good enuf for it to GO for almost 145 feet but still a long way to go to the very chossy top.

not really long enuf to make two pitches. 

We are having a spirited debate about the best course of action. 

climberish · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
ViperScale wrote:

I think they cut a special really long rope for kai lightner when he was in spain so he could do some 2 pitch routes with a single rope. He was scared of doing multi pitch.

I don't think its "special"... you can get ropes cut to whatever length you want within reason.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Darren Mabe wrote:

Some day there will be folks who only own 70m ropes whining about the new 40m routes

I whined about the 60 to 70 transition and will certainly whine again if 70 to 80 occurs.

I mean, how much rope do you want to carry around? 80, 90, 100, 1000 meters? Let's do El Cap in one pitch??

Really depends where you climb.

In CCC and Bocan, a 70 is needed about one route in twenty. And the majority of those stretched routes would be just as good if 5 meters shorter.

But at Ten Sleep...

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Mark E Dixon wrote:

In CCC and Bocan, a 70 is needed about one route in twenty. And the majority of those stretched routes would be just as good if 5 meters shorter.

At some CCC and Bocan crags, a 70 is often long enough to share between adjacent routes :).

stolo · · Lake Norman, NC · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 214

Top belay 

Joe Prescott · · Berlin Germany · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 6
Guy Keesee wrote:

That day has already arrived, my friend. 

At a local crag...  a new 5.10 sport climb.... the stone was good enuf for it to GO for almost 145 feet but still a long way to go to the very chossy top.

not really long enuf to make two pitches. 

We are having a spirited debate about the best course of action. 

Spain/France it is pretty common to have 40-45m routes. I'm not only talking about the extensions of the hardman routes, but normal routes that are just very long. They almost always have lower-off anchors at around 25-30m for the intention of getting down. So in response to the OPs title, yes, its reasonable to have an anchor that is intended to clip on the way up and aid in descent and doesn't necessarily need to be at the best place to end a route (but would be noce if it was near a stance. Bit as others have said, if you don't know these sort of things, perhaps you shouldn't be putting up routes like this.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Josh Janes wrote:

Yeah, and while you’re at it please install some hand rails on the approach, extra anchors on all the 30m routes so I can climb them safely with my 50m rope, and maybe some colored tape to mark the holds. It doesn't matter how "safe" a crag has been engineered, if you're careless enough you can still get hurt. Better to instead remain vigilant and enjoy an activity that is full of diversity of experience and varying risks. That's just me. I suppose no amount of arguing will change the mindset of people who think safety and convenience are the paramount values in rock climbing. Good luck out there and don’t forget to check your knot. And to the OP: I'm sure if you weigh these responses and think it through you'll come to a good decision. And if you make a mistake - no big deal! Afterall, as you said yourself it's a chossy cliff in the middle of Missouri.

I don't develop routes, so I'm open to correction from those who do.

But my impression is that route developers consider safety every time they bolt a route.

Many developers climb quite hard, 5.13-5.14. But when they bolt a 5.10, they place enough bolts that a 5.10 leader will be comfortable, even though they could manage with fewer.

Developers usually try to place bolts where even short climbers can clip them, rather than force an unneeded sketchy move.

When indicated, developers seem to place anchors where lowering will be a safe option, avoiding sharp edges for example.

Long run outs are usually avoided, even if the climbing is relatively easy.

IMHO, adding a 35 meter pitch to an area where all the other routes top out at 30, where even the developers don't own a 70 m rope, is just asking for unnecessary accidents.

And is a reasonable safety consideration.

As I said before, if the last 5 meters is great, it may be worth the risk. But if just choss, then why do something that you can predict will cause an accident?

Here's an example of a climb that really needs it's last 15 feet.

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/00pr-kr33m/107177226

The extension of this route seems less worthy to me. Especially as it's on a beginner crag.

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/made-in-the-shade/106210224

I don't think anybody goes to the top anchor anymore (lot of spider webs last time I did) but the upper part doesn't really add anything, IMHO. Just risk.

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/hot-stuff/105749551

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Kyle Tarry wrote:

Only people who don't like getting lowered off the end of their rope.  I tie a knot in the end nearly every time, and so does just about everyone I climb with.

I also don't know why you specified "on single pitch climbs."  Single pitch climbs are the ONLY time you need to tie a knot in the end.  On multipitch, the belayer is tied into the other end of the rope, and they aren't being lowered anyway, so it doesn't apply there.

Ask Alex Honnold's broken back how cool it is to not tie a knot in the end of your rope.  http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213878/Fall-on-Rock-Lowering-Errors-Rope-Too-Short

How is this, in any universe, "safer"?  Maybe you meant to say "more convenient" or "faster"?  FYI those are different things than "safer".

Well maybe if you use an auto locking belay device tying a knot at the end while keeping someone hanging is fine but when you don't have an auto locking belay device trying to hold someone on belay and tie a knot at the same time isn't exactly safe (yes you can do a knot 1 handed but not everyone out there learns to do that).

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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