Inclusive Language and diversity in climbing

Will S wrote:

FFS, no. Culture is social customs, collective intellectual achievement/tradition. "Race" has not a single thing to do with it. 

"Race" isn't even a thing, it's an artificial construct with no scientific validity. You're trying to ascbribe variations in physical features to discrete categories, calling that "race" when those features exist on a spectrum with no discrete boundaries and no hard genetic differentiation. 

I had typing and am not going to type out a 10 page book to example the difference so we can just agree to disagree. Until you really go live in a completely different culture / race country with the people I don't think you will completely understand. Trying to convince others isn't worth my time. I have been to 18 different countries all over the planet and there is a connection between races in different countries and culture.

Will S wrote:

FFS, no. Culture is social customs, collective intellectual achievement/tradition. "Race" has not a single thing to do with it. 

"Race" isn't even a thing, it's an artificial construct with no scientific validity.

Oh c'mon man, that's a ridiculous statement. You can argue about the relative differences between and within the races and how significant they are, but the definitions are clear enough. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8443937_Deconstructing_the_Relationship_Between_Genetics_and_Race

All I know is that I grew up with a really diverse crowd a people, and still hang out/ work with a very diverse group of people. I'm always asking people to come climb with me or go to the mountains and get out there... There are two things every single one of my african american friends want absolutely NO part of (not saying everyone is like them or likes what they like)...

1. Surfing 

2. Climbing

 If I could ever convince them to come, I would take them out in a heartbeat. I love seeing people try new things. Different people like different things, nothing wrong with it.... They always take me up on my offer to go fishing on the boat though! 

Jordan wrote:

All I know is that I grew up with a really diverse crowd a people, and still hang out/ work with a very diverse group of people. I'm always asking people to come climb with me or go to the mountains and get out there... There are two things every single one of my african american friends want absolutely NO part of (not saying everyone is like them or likes what they like)...

1. Surfing 

2. Climbing

 If I could ever convince them to come, I would take them out in a heartbeat. I love seeing people try new things. Different people like different things, nothing wrong with it.... They always take me up on my offer to go fishing on the boat though! 

My roommate in college was black and he used to always call swimming and climbing "White folks activities"...  I tried to drag him out many times, but he was never interested.  Thought it was crazy...

Stagg54 Taggart wrote:

My roommate in college was black and he used to always call swimming and climbing "White folks activities"...  I tried to drag him out many times, but he was never interested.  Thought it was crazy...

I had a black friend who's main thing was climbing, but he was adopted (white Colorado family).

Not alot of black people climb but the gym I started climbing in and got to know one who is training I hope will get a medal in the Olympics (although speed climbing is going to be tough for him completely out of his style). I know a few other black folks who I have been out climbing with but yea not alot of them like to do it.

Politically Correct Ball wrote:

I had a black friend who's main thing was climbing, but he was adopted (white Colorado family).

It was just meant as an anecdote.  I did run into a black I know from the climbing gym at Vedauwoo and he was crushing some hard offwidths...  

Glad everyone cleared up the fact that race doesn't exist. I was always confused when I looked at people and they physically looked different. Glad you guys cleared up the fact that any 2 people on the planet could have a kid that looked like any other person on the planet!!!

Clearly the DNA that makes people look different has nothing to do with the way the brain processes information and they learn and make choices in life.

ViperScale wrote:

So you have never lived in a completely different culture aka a country on the other side of the planet from where you live for 6+ months. I don't know where you are from but moving say from east coast to west coast of the US isn't a completely different culture.

a. that was a joke.

b. whatever insights you think you have about "race" from spending 6 months somewhere in Africa, your conclusion that race = culture is absurd. 

ubu wrote:

a. that was a joke.

b. whatever insights you think you have about "race" from spending 6 months somewhere in Africa, your conclusion that race = culture is absurd. 

I never said race = culture I said race is the building block the creates culture. You take legos and put them together they make an object. The object that is created is defined by which pieces of legos you have. Not all lego pieces are the same.

And I have spent time in 18 different countries and in almost every state in the US. I have seen alot of different races and cultures.

ViperScale wrote:

I never said race = culture I said race is the building block the creates culture. You take legos and put them together they make an object. The object that is created is defined by which pieces of legos you have. Not all lego pieces are the same.

And I have spent time in 18 different countries and in almost every state in the US. I have seen alot of different races and cultures.

I really don't know how to unwind this.  In your world, different cultures (a real thing) exist because different "races" (not a real thing from an evolutionary biology perspective) somehow have innate differences that serve as building blocks to define the unique aspects of each culture?  I'm not trying to be snide here, but I find this really remarkable and, to be blunt, more than a bit ignorant.

Politically Correct Ball wrote:

No you dip. He said it (assuming this isn't fanfic) as a compliment, remarking that it's unusual for a girl to do what she did. 

Clearly you have a bug up your ass or you wouldn't call me a dip. You're correct that he meant it as a compliment. The compliment was ALSO sexist in its assumptions about girls. Which my 12-year-old daughter was correct to point out. You don't have to be malicious in intent to be sexist.

There's nothing particularly unusual about a female being a great climber at our gym. In fact, some of the best climbers there are women.

Don't worry, everyone walked away from the encounter friends and better for it. 

ubu wrote:

I really don't know how to unwind this.  In your world, different cultures (a real thing) exist because different "races" (not a real thing from an evolutionary biology perspective) somehow have innate differences that serve as building blocks to define the unique aspects of each culture?  I'm not trying to be snide here, but I find this really remarkable and, to be blunt, more than a bit ignorant.

I don't know I think anyone who says race doesn't exist (we can call it something else if you want since it is just an evil word) but here is an extremely simple view of how the world works.

A) You have a Human with a set of DNA that reproduces and has alot of kids.

B) Over time those kids move off all over the planet and have more kids killing off different traits of the human DNA (call it evolve whatever you want but the DNA changes as different groups of humans move around the world)

C) Those changes in DNA are based on the environment since living in different parts of the world means different DNA is better for survival in those areas.

D) Those different human races now will think and be physically different and creates different cultures because of it.

If race doesn't exist something we can physically measure in the human body than clearly culture doesn't exist either and is just something made up like race.

Jaren Watson wrote:

I really do wish you would articulate what you keep implying. What characteristics are peculiar to each race? As a world traveler and keen observer of humanity, you have insights that are too valuable to keep to yourself.

Like I said above, you know that once you put those thoughts into actual words, it’s impossible to keep the blatant racism fully hidden. If I’m wrong, demonstrate that by taking your argument to the next step, which is to clearly name the characteristics inherent in different races. Earlier you said that stereotypes are formed because a large percentage of a group acts a certain way. 

So I am asking you point blank to tell us what are the ways different races act that are specific to that race. Will you continue to hide and pretend you meant something else, or are you going to own your argument? 

I spent the most time in Africa so I will give you one example and I am sure everyone will call me racist but I don't care. I noticed there were very few entrepreneurs. 80% of the business run in the country I was in were run by people from the Middle East, Asia, and India. I noticed so many people who just wanted to sit around and do nothing to try to better themself. There were some who did and I have sent 1000s of dollars back in "loans" that I know probably will never get repaid to help them try to start businesses.

Clearly living in the US I would say this stereotype from back in the early US days of black people being lazy is probably more of a minority at this time but still it makes you question did they start off that way when they were first sold into slavery by their own people in Africa and over time living in the US has changed this about them.

Stereotypes are rarely completely made up and normally they come from people really being that way at some point in time of history. So instead of calling people who use stereotypes racist if you group has a stereotype maybe you should look at your own group and see if it is true about some of your people and maybe address it instead of just crying racist or whatever.

ViperScale wrote:

I spent the most time in Africa so I will give you one example and I am sure everyone will call me racist but I don't care. I noticed there were very few entrepreneurs. 80% of the business run in the country I was in were run by people from the Middle East, Asia, and India. I noticed so many people who just wanted to sit around and do nothing to try to better themself. There were some who did and I have sent 1000s of dollars back in "loans" that I know probably will never get repaid to help them try to start businesses.

Clearly living in the US I would say this stereotype from back in the early US days of black people being lazy is probably more of a minority at this time but still it makes you question did they start off that way when they were first sold into slavery by their own people in Africa and over time living in the US has changed this about them.

Stereotypes are rarely completely made up and normally they come from people really being that way at some point in time of history. So instead of calling people who use stereotypes racist if you group has a stereotype maybe you should look at your own group and see if it is true about some of your people and maybe address it instead of just crying racist or whatever.

It's funny because the southern US used to have the reputation of being full of lazy good for nothings both blacks and white. And it turns out there was a reason for it that didn't have anything to do with their DNA or skin color. Disease is both a symptom and a cause of poverty. Parasite loads, childhood malaria, Leishmaniasis and a host of other nasties cause a huge hit to the economic productivity of some African nations. 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/nature/how-a-worm-gave-the-south-a-bad-name/

Hey folks, OP here. I'm not a troll, was out climbing all weekend and didn't look at phone much. I like the discussion going on and look forward to some face to face discussion with my friends here in NC. I think sexism still exists in climbing based on my experience and I just wanted to talk about it and open the door a bit wider for other forms of biases. The kid who made the original comment seemed really receptive to my questions and I respect him a lot for his thoughtful response. In general I agree that the Climbing community is made up of some fantastic and open minded folks 

I'm from NYC. I just want a partner around my own intermediate capability to climb with. I could care less what color, creed, sexual orientation, physical or mental handicap they have. It can be the pink teletubbie (forget which one caused that nonsense) who gives a shit., If they can climb, are safe, and wanna climb with me hit me up! 

Now I do draw the line at anyone dressed as a clown.

Oh wait, this the Southern States forum....forgot where I was for a second.  

John Kelly wrote:

I'm from NYC. I just want a partner around my own intermediate capability to climb with. I could care less what color, creed, sexual orientation, physical or mental handicap they have. It can be the pink teletubbie (forget which one caused that nonsense) who gives a shit., If they can climb, are safe, and wanna climb with me hit me up! 

Now I do draw the line at anyone dressed as a clown.

Oh wait, this the Southern States forum....forgot where I was for a second.  

Go home Yankee! ;)

Politically Correct Ball wrote:

There is absolutely nothing sexist about saying girls tend to play with dolls. Also, you're raising a cunt.

Well, based on your choice to use horribly degrading language to describe a 12 year old you've never met, you seem like a great choice for a moral authority on what is and is not sexist. 

...

Can we all agree, based in part on some comments in this very thread, that as a community we have some work to do towards inclusivity? I'd like to see us all spending less energy arguing over whether a problem exists and more on ways to work toward improving.