Do you stick clip? Why or why not?

Mark Waterous wrote:

Really wish I had a stick clip this past weekend. The first bolt on jasonbecker.com at Shelf Road is about 20 feet off the deck. Super easy climbing, with a fat ledge two moves shy of the clip (for 5'10). This route has been a goal of mine for the past couple of weeks as I break into 10s.

Nice work! I'm psyched for you. That's such a good route on perfect stone, probably the best 5.10 at Shelf.

Just occurred to me - I have yet to do a sport route that has a first bolt more than appx 10' off the start. These are all 5.8 or less and I did not feel at risk of hitting the deck. Is it more common to encounter high first bolts on higher grades?

Oh for Pete's sakes...just why is everyone acting like stick clips are a new phenomenon?  They've been around since the advent of sport climbing, and have even been used before that in aid. You may as well complain about use of cams or some other 'recent abominations.'

aikibujin wrote:

Nice work! I'm psyched for you. That's such a good route on perfect stone, probably the best 5.10 at Shelf.

The moves from the second to last bolt up to the anchors were incredible. Still giddy over how much fun that was.

Paul Deger wrote:

 Is it more common to encounter high first bolts on higher grades?

Not necessarily. I think it depends on the developer and the characteristics of the rock. Since you're in Colorado, check out Stone Cold Moderate in Clear Creek, a 5.7, but I personally wouldn't climb it without stick clip the first bolt.

Mason Stone wrote:

JJ and Marc, 

Notice I said my, me and I. Few weeks ago two guys showed up to the local crag with their stick clip, stick clipped their way up a 5.10. Looked at me sheepishly to which I replied hey man, whatever makes you safe. I am not condemning someone for stick clipping, just engaging in the OP's question and the discussion. The question was do you stick clip and why or why not. We don't make the rules for others to follow, you and I have our own, which in some ways makes us more safe and in others puts us at risk. So chide me if you want, my position stands, I know about low cruxes, I just prefer to eyeball a route and either decide I can climb it or walk away. I do climb at my absolute limit, I prefer to do that on top rope (can you not work a route on top rope?), didn't I mention that option? Do I lead at my absolute limit? Rarely, but when I do I have the focus to do so. This discussion is not about right or wrong, rather about preference and justifications for such. When you flame away you detract from the conversation and the possibility for new or emerging climbers to learn from you. And if you took this personally: "Dogging one's way up a route while yelling take the whole way up is not awesomer than top roping a route." I have seen someone do this and I don't see how this can help a person get better. 

I'm not flaming you and as I said, climb how ever you like in whatever style you prefer, but do so from an objective viewpoint. It seemed that you were mixing two rather different approaches to climbing and applying the mores of one style to what is usually considered standard in the other style. Don't use a stick if you prefer to work up to the level needed to safely get to the first bolt, but recognize that on a lot of routes at a lot of areas, the developer intentionally set the bolt high with the expectation that everyone climbing the route would stick clip that bolt.

Regarding top roping: doesn't work at a lot of places since it's often a rigging problem just to get to the anchors that are not at the top of the cliff (and reaching them may expose the people on the ground to rockfall). Once you get into the severely overhanging realm, it often is far more dangerous to top rope than lead when you're low on the route. 

How would you top rope the routes in this cave?

Marc801 C wrote:

Regarding top roping: doesn't work at a lot of places since it's often a rigging problem just to get to the anchors that are not at the top of the cliff (and reaching them may expose the people on the ground to rockfall). Once you get into the severely overhanging realm, it often is far more dangerous to top rope than lead when you're low on the route. 

How would you top rope the routes in this cave?

Just like any other seriously overhanging route - 2nd-ing  - tie in on end of rope that follows quickdraws to the anchors, formerly belayers end, belayer is belaying on the end that comes out of anchors, formerly climber's end. If more people want to TR same route, climber will have to re-clip when lowering.
Sometimes it is expedient to clean a route this way - climb a route, lower, retie on the former belayer's end, climb up collecting draws. 

"There are a lot of routes where the portion before the first bolt is the crux."

So you are top roping the crux, when you stick clip.  This is fine.   But you did not lead the route.

Marc801 C wrote:

I know. I often wonder if people expousing those views ever really climb at their absolute limit.

Please don't get Joe going about climbing at one's absolute limit. 

I don't need another LSD story.

Jake Jones wrote:

Not sticking the first bolt adds unnecessary risk.  Period.  

Unless you want to solo/boulder up to the first bolt, in which case the added risk is part of attraction for some.

OTOH, not sticking the first bolt due to some misplaced trad attitude is just ignorant.

"Chris Sharma doesn't give a shit"

I guarantee you he does.  A route done with no stick clipping is better than doing it with a clipped first bolt.   I am sure he would prefer to get it clean (if possible).  As for reaching above your head to clip.... well that's WITH YOUR ARM ...  which is a lot different ... Come on, man.

So do you consider aiding or french freeing just as "good" as getting the pitch clean?  It's the same distinction.   You try to get the pitch as clean and pure as you can, without any artificial additions.   It would be like taking a bunch of small boulders and building a little pedestal to stand on, because the starting moves are hard. 

Russ Keane wrote:

"Chris Sharma doesn't give a shit"

I guarantee you he does.  A route done with no stick clipping is better than doing it with a clipped first bolt.   I am sure he would prefer to get it clean (if possible).  As for reaching above your head to clip.... well that's WITH YOUR ARM ...  which is a lot different ... Come on, man.

You guarantee? I've never met him. I can guarantee with as much authority as yourself that he doesn't. Why would he give a rats behind? I direct you to the second bolded sentence.

We just bought a house in New Castle, CO. The "Western Sloper" Guidebook recommends one so I built a sweet ass stick clip. Still haven't used it, but it's sweet!!!!

Hank Caylor wrote:

We just bought a house in New Castle, CO. The "Western Sloper" Guidebook recommends one so I built a sweet ass stick clip. Still haven't used it, but it's sweet!!!!

Welcome to the valley! Sorry about the bridge construction, not sorry about the incredible climbing you have right behind your house.

Russ Keane wrote:

"Chris Sharma doesn't give a shit"

I guarantee you he does.  A route done with no stick clipping is better than doing it with a clipped first bolt.   I am sure he would prefer to get it clean (if possible).  As for reaching above your head to clip.... well that's WITH YOUR ARM ...  which is a lot different ... Come on, man.

So do you consider aiding or french freeing just as "good" as getting the pitch clean?  It's the same distinction.   You try to get the pitch as clean and pure as you can, without any artificial additions.   It would be like taking a bunch of small boulders and building a little pedestal to stand on, because the starting moves are hard. 

Oh, FFS...this is the internet, guys.  This is easy to verify:

https://youtu.be/UlcQ3mxlNfs

https://youtu.be/vk4YrOtVTLg

Notice the clipped first bolt on the ascent.  No "can't wait to do it again without a stick clip!" because, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread, nobody who climbs hard gives a shit.

It's SPORT climbing, not Baffin ballsiness. Different game.  If you're applying the same "rules" of ground up trad radness to preplaced (bolts) protection climbs, you're missing the point.

 "Sport climbing is like sport fucking, a lot of fun and not much commitment." - Jim Bridwell

man, I mean I love to lead and I totally think its a valuable and worthy achievement, but man if I top rope a route at my highest grade, say a 5.13, but I can only lead 5.11c...id be STOKED for the top rope send of the hard route

in terms of "pure climbing" what could be any purer than top roping in a certain sense...no danger, no clips etc, just you and those damn moves to figure out

personally I think its very COOL to send really hard top ropes
I also think its COOL to send slightly less hard leads

If you stick clip than you are top roping part of the route.

Honestly I don't care as long as you are honest and admit that you top roped the first bolt of the climb and didn't lead the entire thing.

"Oh yeah?  Did you ask him?"

Dude, you're the one who said "I assure you Chris Sharma does not give a shit."   All I'm saying is, if Adam Ondra walked up to the same 5.15d that Sharma sent, and did it without stick clipping the first bolt, Ondra did it better.  (and maybe Sharma would care, and/or try it again in that style).    

I humbly regret breathing life back into this thread. Let it die before 30 pages please.