mountaineering vs relationship

ler tah wrote:

he is my first because I always wanted to do what I wanna do without any limitation and in my culture it's kinda normal that guys dont want their girlfriend or wife be surrounded with men only. I am 32 by the way

I've never found my girlfriend to be the cause of any limitations on what I do.

My ex-wife on the other hand...

Jose Gutierrez wrote:

As a guy I can say its pretty much impossible to have a strictly platonic relationship with other women, so ...

If this were true, I'd be exhausted from constantly f*ing half the people that I interact with, would probably be fired a lot more often with several lawsuits coming my way, and I'm not sure how I'd have time to get any climbing done. 

It's not impossible. Your relationships with the women you cross paths with are platonic more often than not, I'm willing to bet. You do realize that, even if it were true that "no guy can control himself", (it's not), that it takes two to make a relationship anything but platonic? Being attracted to a woman doesn't mean you're in a relationship with her. 

STOP THIS THREAD NOW!!!   TROLLED!!!!

thank you all for you advices..... I think I know what to do now 

Russ Keane wrote:

STOP THIS THREAD NOW!!!   TROLLED!!!!

Yeah, and I smelled troll from the start as well, but it has been pretty fun seeing people making long, thoughtful responses to an obvious troll.

Plus, some comments opened the door to a different discussion.

Jose Gutierrez wrote:

Em Cos wrote:

If this were true, I'd be exhausted from constantly f*ing half the people that I interact with, would probably be fired a lot more often with several lawsuits coming my way, and I'm not sure how I'd have time to get any climbing done. 

To be fair, I don't think infidelity only starts when you get naked and start rubbing genitalia together. Cheating starts waayyy before that. My wife wouldn't be comfortable with me having close female friends without her involvement, nor would I be comfortable with her having close male friends without my involvement... and I'm sure I'll get flack for that on here or elsewhere.

Sounds like the beginning of a very controlling relationship with the guy determining what another can do.  Get out, the mountains won't turn their back on you.

Joseph Epley wrote:

To be fair, I don't think infidelity only starts when you get naked and start rubbing genitalia together. Cheating starts waayyy before that. My wife wouldn't be comfortable with me having close female friends without her involvement, nor would I be comfortable with her having close male friends without my involvement... and I'm sure I'll get flack for that on here or elsewhere.

I'll be fair and give you a non flak reply.

Yes, "infidelity" is more than having sex, and can start without sex.

The problem is, it is up to me to decide to cross that line or not. How I deal with male friends is up to me, and it is my responsibility to make some lines very, very, clear.

When the other partner decides what my boundaries are, and controls how I conduct myself, that's when it gets really dicey.

I've had many, many male friends over the decades, some quite close. My business was a male dominated one, and I spent most of my life dealing with guys. This spilled over into my other interests as well.

The line was totally clear with all of the men in my life. Even before we married, I was (and am) faithful to my husband. Once that is entirely off the table, it means I can offer deep friendships to all the men in my life. Hubby included.

Forty years with the same guy, this month, twenty five married next April.

Best, Helen

Edit to add: OP, the others are right. You are perhaps headed for abuse.

Joseph Epley wrote:

To be fair, I don't think infidelity only starts when you get naked and start rubbing genitalia together. Cheating starts waayyy before that. My wife wouldn't be comfortable with me having close female friends without her involvement, nor would I be comfortable with her having close male friends without my involvement... and I'm sure I'll get flack for that on here or elsewhere.

I agree, I don't want my partner to worry, I know I hate that feeling.  I don't think someone who has a hard time shaking a bit of jealousy should be branded as abusive either.  

Most are preaching "trust" and in a thought experiment, they'd be right.  On paper it's simple: don't date cheaters, always trust your significant other. But the reality is lots of people cheat, and most people are not bad people. Some of it is due to pre-disposition, some of it is due to opportunity, in varying amounts.  It's like the question of what is more important for climbing, strength or technical skill?  Sometimes a lot of time together in the mountains in high-risk situations, the feeling of shared accomplishment, sharing beautiful moments in nature can lead to the fuzzies (or not).  Even if nothing happens one time, with repeated exposure to different people the risk may grow.  This is not like having a sandwich guy make your sandwich or a mechanic work on your car, often you become very close with your climbing and mountaineering partners.

Does full trust insulate one from cheating?  My friend was living with her partner for 10 years when a woman from couchsurfers started staying with them.  After a few months, the woman from couchsurfers got pregnant by my friend's partner.  But right before the revelation, they made her feel like she was untrusting and crazy (gaslighting) when she started to feel paranoid they might be cheating, to the point my friend told herself she was the one with the insecurity problem, and started attending co-dependents anonymous.  

I'm not saying paranoia and being controlling would stop cheating, and if you have a partner pre-disposed to, and wanting to cheat, they will.  But often it's due to an opportunity which arises.  It's best to have a balance of trust without being a pushover or completely clueless, or overly paranoid and controlling.

In OPs case, it may be a case of incompatibility with boyfriend.  He will not like being on pins and needles all the time, and she will feel resent him from keeping her from the mountains.  So maybe she can separate from him and focus on mountains.  She can find someone more compatible, but if this is the first guy she's dated since becoming an adult, she probably wouldn't want to wait 14 more years.  Or she can break from her culture.  She can also stay with him and find a group of women mountaineers (they are around, even if a bit more work to find).  Or they can decide on a mutually open relationship.  Or at 32 she may decide it's more scary to be a potential cat-lady than refrain from a mountaineering career.  She can pretty much do anything she wants, why would you listen to people on the internet, who don't even have all the details?

But OP may be a troll, because hiking can be a solo activity and not sure why she'd have to give that up.  She can go with her BF, or if he couldn't walk for some reason, she can go hiking alone.  

ler tah wrote:

thank you all for you advices..... I think I know what to do now 

So what are you going to do now ?   Enquiring minds want to know.

One cannot ignore the call of the mountains.

Joseph Epley wrote:

To be fair, I don't think infidelity only starts when you get naked and start rubbing genitalia together. Cheating starts waayyy before that. My wife wouldn't be comfortable with me having close female friends without her involvement, nor would I be comfortable with her having close male friends without my involvement... and I'm sure I'll get flack for that on here or elsewhere.

You're absolutely right, I oversimplified and used sexual infidelity to represent all of "cheating" in the interest of simplicity and brevity in my post, but my point remains. 

There are many different types of relationships, and you can have a romantic and committed relationship that is completely non-sexual, or a sexual relationship that is not a committed one, and a whole wide variety of arrangements. And yes, you can betray your partners trust without ever touching anyone. But if the argument being made is that ANY interaction between a man and a woman = romantic/sexual, therefore is cheating, therefore is forbidden, I simply reject that premise. Have you really never met anyone of the gender you're typically attracted to that you're not specifically attracted to? Or never been attracted to someone without acting on it? 

Furthermore, even if it WERE true that platonic friendships are impossible between heterosexual men and women, the suggested restriction of eliminating every man (or woman) from your life except your chosen partner is so impractical that you really need to find a different solution anyway.  

Em Cos wrote:

But if the argument being made is that ANY interaction between a man and a woman = romantic/sexual, therefore is cheating, therefore is forbidden, I simply reject that premise.

I agree. And I'd like to point out that, at least for my wife and me, it's not a matter of removing all male/female relationships outside of our marriage, but limiting close relationships to those that involve each other (again, my wife would not be comfortable with me having a close friendship with a woman without her involvement in that friendship). And this is not because any such relationship would automatically be considered cheating, but because those types of relationships can easily lead to some type of cheating (maybe sexual, but not necessarily).

You could argue this is a type of distrust, but I think of it as more a distrust of human nature more than of an individual. I know generally "good" people who have cheated, and it is often a slow, unintentional development over time, not an overt decision to betray their partner.

Old lady H wrote:

I'll be fair and give you a non flak reply.

Yes, "infidelity" is more than having sex, and can start without sex.

The problem is, it is up to me to decide to cross that line or not. How I deal with male friends is up to me, and it is my responsibility to make some lines very, very, clear.

When the other partner decides what my boundaries are, and controls how I conduct myself, that's when it gets really dicey.

I've had many, many male friends over the decades, some quite close. My business was a male dominated one, and I spent most of my life dealing with guys. This spilled over into my other interests as well.

The line was totally clear with all of the men in my life. Even before we married, I was (and am) faithful to my husband. Once that is entirely off the table, it means I can offer deep friendships to all the men in my life. Hubby included.

Forty years with the same guy, this month, twenty five married next April.

Best, Helen

Edit to add: OP, the others are right. You are perhaps headed for abuse.

Thanks for the non-flack response, lol.

I don't know about the OP, but I'd like to point out that, in the case of my marriage, it's not a "demand" as much as an agreement between my wife and me about what boundaries work for us. I think sherb was alluding to something similar. 

It sounds like the OP's relationship is more one sided in this respect, but I just don't think it's fair to assume the relationship is abusive because the guy has these concerns.

Relationships are fleeting.  You can however always count on the mountains to be there for you, sometimes to kick your teeth in.

Joseph Epley wrote:

I agree. And I'd like to point out that, at least for my wife and me, it's not a matter of removing all male/female relationships outside of our marriage, but limiting close relationships to those that involve each other (again, my wife would not be comfortable with me having a close friendship with a woman without her involvement in that friendship). And this is not because any such relationship would automatically be considered cheating, but because those types of relationships can easily lead to some type of cheating (maybe sexual, but not necessarily).

You could argue this is a type of distrust, but I think of it as more a distrust of human nature more than of an individual. I know generally "good" people who have cheated, and it is often a slow, unintentional development over time, not an overt decision to betray their partner.

It sounds like this is something you and your wife are on the same page about. If an arrangement like this is something freely chosen by both partners and it works for both of them, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It doesn't sound like that's the case for the OP, and it was her specific case (not yours or anyone else's that may have some similarities) that some of us were expressing concerns about. 

I didn't say that a couple mutually setting boundaries that work for them both is abusive, or that one partner wishing to do so is abusive, or even that the OP's SO is abusive. I said that demanding your partner change their lifestyle and cut off many of their friendships (which may or may not be what is happening with the OP, impossible for any of us to know based on a few posts), is a sign of a controlling attitude, which may be a red flag, and cause for serious consideration. 

Em Cos wrote:

It sounds like this is something you and your wife are on the same page about. If an arrangement like this is something freely chosen by both partners and it works for both of them, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It doesn't sound like that's the case for the OP, and it was her specific case (not yours or anyone else's that may have some similarities) that some of us were expressing concerns about. 

I didn't say that a couple mutually setting boundaries that work for them both is abusive, or that one partner wishing to do so is abusive, or even that the OP's SO is abusive. I said that demanding your partner change their lifestyle and cut off many of their friendships (which may or may not be what is happening with the OP, impossible for any of us to know based on a few posts), is a sign of a controlling attitude, which may be a red flag, and cause for serious consideration. 

It sounds like we generally agree on these points. It just seemed that a lot of people were acting like anyone who sympathizes with these types of boundaries in a relationship are controlling and incapable of having a healthy relationship. Of course we're all writing in short little posts and any such vibes I got may have been inaccurate or unintended.

Joseph Epley wrote:

Thanks for the non-flack response, lol.

I don't know about the OP, but I'd like to point out that, in the case of my marriage, it's not a "demand" as much as an agreement between my wife and me about what boundaries work for us. I think sherb was alluding to something similar. 

It sounds like the OP's relationship is more one sided in this respect, but I just don't think it's fair to assume the relationship is abusive because the guy has these concerns.

As em pointed out, it sounds like the two of you are on the same page. Bravo! 

With the OP? We are missing a lot of information, but apart from trust, even more essential is respect. When you lose (or never had) real respect for the other, all bets are off. That, is a really tough line to respect, and I freely admit it is a struggle. Both infidelity and abuse can follow the same bit by bit lines.

The other part of this, is perhaps cultural, somewhat alluded to by the OP.

What I am wondering, is if the real decision isn't the boyfriend, but staying within cultural bounds, or not. That's a tough call. Mountaineering has women in it, of course, but it isn't exactly a role women have had, at least not in any tradition I can think of. Mountain women yes, but "because it's there"? No.

Best wishes to you OP! FWIW, most of us have had to decide/settle between the life we want and the life we are in. Picking what matters can be tough!

OLH

I promise I'm not trying to troll, but it'll definitely start a troll following.

men think about sex a lot.  Not to say women don't think about it as much, but stereotypically, men think about it more times a day.  Even if we aren't thinking about sex, we are think about girls naked.  Not all of the time.  But there are few girls we interact with that we didn't have those thoughts cross our minds.  Even a best friend from elementary school that grew up as one of the guys. 

Do those thoughts automatically make infidelity?  No.  If we think about acting on those thought, that doesn't even make us bad people.  There's a line you cross where you either let the other person know of you desires, or where you start treating your significant other differently because of them.  The latter may be subconscious, and they might know before you do that something is wrong in your relationship. 

The point is that having a fleeting sexual though about someone your hanging out with doesn't automatically constitute infidelity.  There is no way of categorizing people into just 2 groups:  sexual partner vs. sexless eunuch