Necedah Apology

James Schroeder wrote:

2. It is long-established in the general etiquette that leaders and soloists have the right of way when climbing outside. If asked, top ropers should let folks lead-through, the top ropers might even learn something, maybe a what to do or a what not to do, but something nonetheless. This knife admittedly cuts both ways, leaders and soloists should only ask to lead through if they're competent, efficient, and fast. It's equally impolite to hog a route on TR or on lead

Where did this rule of "general etiquette " come from? Necedah is a single pitch crag, in what universe do leaders have right of way to top ropers and soloist? I'd like to see you pull this one off at Devils lake, it would be amusing to watch

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

Where did this rule of "general etiquette " come from? Necedah is a single pitch crag, in what universe do leaders have right of way to top ropers and soloist? I'd like to see you pull this one off at Devils lake, it would be amusing to watch

Ahhhhhhhhhya! Bring on the controversy!

This IS a general etiquette that stems from DL but as you can probably understand it's a bit silly for practical reasons. I'm sure it was just a macho thing the old farts said to give the top ropers the boot. Most likely this only applies to FIBs.

Thanks for the post James. Take away the noise and your 3 points are worth having as a post regardless. 

Tradiban wrote:

Ahhhhhhhhhya! Bring on the controversy!

This IS a general etiquette that stems from DL but as you can probably understand it's a bit silly for practical reasons. I'm sure it was just a macho thing the old farts said to give the top ropers the boot. Most likely this only applies to FIBs.

I kinda agree with you here Nick, I rarely saw this 'etiquette' applied at DL.  I myself did it once or twice, but for most of the trade routes it always seemed like TR up meant the route was reserved all day long...

Mike Robinson wrote:

I kinda agree with you here Nick, I rarely saw this 'etiquette' applied at DL.  I myself did it once on a 'harder' route, but for most of the trade routes it always seemed like TR up meant the route was reserved all day long...

I've asked lots of people at the Lake if they mind if I "lead through quick" and have generally gotten positive responses. I think this long-standing etiquette at the Lake has an important place since a quick lead hardly monopolizes the route like an all-day top rope rig. I'm guessing that's why the etiquette evolved in the way it did. I don't think it's meant to be condescending, just a good way for folks to share the rock. I've always thought that "Leaders and soloists have the right of way" carried an unspoken "assuming they're not going to take very long." tied on the end. Like I said in my original post, "...leaders and soloists should only ask to lead through if they're competent, efficient, and fast. It's equally impolite to hog a route on TR or on lead." I'm not sure why this is controversial.

s.price wrote:

Were the groups climbing with Adventure Rock in a class or other scenario sponsored by AR? If so seems to me they owe the climbing community an apology as well for not showing those in attendance how to approach the outdoors in a respectful way.  

I could be wrong, but my assumption is that the group was unofficial.

I shared this on FB with a friend who was at Necedah over the weekend.  He wasn't part of the group you had your encounter with, but he knows them and will pass this on.

So... I feel confident that your apology will find its way to the people you wanted it to.  

Furthermore, kudos to you making an effort.  Admitting you handled a situation in an unkind way and apologizing for it does matter.   Small actions do make our community (and all communities) a better place.  Anyone who gives you grief is just being a jerk.

Why is everyone siding with the OP without knowing the whole story? How can we know that he was a justified dick to the other group? For all I know he could have bashed someone's head in with pink tricam for hogging his project while playing trap and desecrating the sacred rock?

Tradiban wrote:

Ahhhhhhhhhya! Bring on the controversy!

This IS a general etiquette that stems from DL but as you can probably understand it's a bit silly for practical reasons. I'm sure it was just a macho thing the old farts said to give the top ropers the boot. Most likely this only applies to FIBs.

I've always interpreted this as if I am at the bottom of a route setting up for a lead, and you're at the top setting an anchor, I get right of way as the leader, and you let me lead and clean it before you toss your rope for a TR.  

I never felt it meant I could simply jump on something that someone else had already set up a TR on. 

Louis Weiher wrote:

I've always interpreted this as if I am at the bottom of a route setting up for a lead, and you're at the top setting an anchor, I get right of way as the leader, and you let me lead and clean it before you toss your rope for a TR.  

I never felt it meant I could simply jump on something that someone else had already set up a TR on. 

None of it is a rule, it's common courtesy, but I think someone made the "rule" because FIBs lack the courtsey.

Louis Weiher wrote:

I shared this on FB with a friend who was at Necedah over the weekend.  He wasn't part of the group you had your encounter with, but he knows them and will pass this on.

So... I feel confident that your apology will find its way to the people you wanted it to.  

Furthermore, kudos to you making an effort.  Admitting you handled a situation in an unkind way and apologizing for it does matter.   Small actions do make our community (and all communities) a better place.  Anyone who gives you grief is just being a jerk.

Thanks for helping to get this where it needs to be, and for the kudos.

James Schroeder wrote:

I've asked lots of people at the Lake if they mind if I "lead through quick" and have generally gotten positive responses. I think this long-standing etiquette at the Lake has an important place since a quick lead hardly monopolizes the route like an all-day top rope rig. I'm guessing that's why the etiquette evolved in the way it did. I don't think it's meant to be condescending, just a good way for folks to share the rock. I've always thought that "Leaders and soloists have the right of way" carried an unspoken "assuming they're not going to take very long." tied on the end. Like I said in my original post, "...leaders and soloists should only ask to lead through if they're competent, efficient, and fast. It's equally impolite to hog a route on TR or on lead." I'm not sure why this is controversial.

I was going to post that someone courteously led through earlier this year at the Lake when it was clear we were gumbying around, but now I'm pretty sure it was actually you. Go figure!

James Schroeder wrote:

I've asked lots of people at the Lake if they mind if I "lead through quick" and have generally gotten positive responses. I think this long-standing etiquette at the Lake has an important place since a quick lead hardly monopolizes the route like an all-day top rope rig. I'm guessing that's why the etiquette evolved in the way it did. I don't think it's meant to be condescending, just a good way for folks to share the rock. I've always thought that "Leaders and soloists have the right of way" carried an unspoken "assuming they're not going to take very long." tied on the end. Like I said in my original post, "...leaders and soloists should only ask to lead through if they're competent, efficient, and fast. It's equally impolite to hog a route on TR or on lead." I'm not sure why this is controversial.

I've never climbed in WI, but have climbed all across the country from WV to CA and have never been denied a, lead through or solo after some pleasant conversation. At single pitch crags 9 times out of 10 the group offers me go if a top rope is up. I believe the negative responses are the result of more vinegar than honey. You're on the right track...just had an off day. It happens. I might have to travel back to CO from WV via the WI route looks sweet!

England wrote:

I've never climbed in WI, but have climbed all across the country from WV to CA and have never been denied a, lead through or solo after some pleasant conversation. At single pitch crags 9 times out of 10 the group offers me go if a top rope is up. I believe the negative responses are the result of more vinegar than honey. You're on the right track...just had an off day. It happens. I might have to travel back to CO from WV via the WI route looks sweet!

Let me know if you do, I'll get you on the classics.

NegativeK wrote:

I was going to post that someone courteously led through earlier this year at the Lake when it was clear we were gumbying around, but now I'm pretty sure it was actually you. Go figure!

I'm glad you found it to be a courteous interaction!

Wowwie. I can't help but see a glaring piece of Bullshit here, so I'm going to go ahead and point it out: If this community forum is an ok place to reach out for partners, then it's a perfectly acceptable place to offer an apology. The OP knows he messed up, is simply trying to apologize and is currently having their thread hijacked by people who just want a good story so they can say "I heard about this one guy who..." If you were all so damn concerned about situations that didn't concern you, you'd light up the posts where people just ask for a partner too, or any other of the posts on here that obviously don't need a bunch of people pulling it all apart. May I please suggest that it doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong, but maybe the chatter could calm down a bit, and hopefully the parties involved can get in touch and have a real human experience. That is what this is all about in the end, last I checked. Climb happy y'all

Damnit, I wanna know what Grog said. Ya know, all the posting just helps James find the MKE crowd by bumping the post to the top. Duh.

James-I was part of the group on Air and genuinely appreciate you taking the time to apologize. I think, seeing as I was there, both parties were in the wrong. The whol situation could have been handled in a more mature way but regardless, I apologize as well. We have a lot of climbers that are still new to outdoor climbing in our group and anxiety runs high so it freaked a few of our people out when you wanted to climb through when we had someone 3/4 of the way up the route. We really try to keep it safe and ensure none of us put anyone in danger and having someone lead through didn't sit too well with us since we had clips up for lead as well. We had climbers both top roping and leading the route. To those that said we may have been "hogging the route", we only had top rope set up for 3 climbers and 3 other lead up. We were done with Air and our ropes were down in less than an hour. Regardless, thank you James for the apology and for giving us some tips for future reference. I'm sure we will see you out there again in the near future and we all hope to have a more pleasant encounter :) 

Louis Weiher wrote:

I've always interpreted this as if I am at the bottom of a route setting up for a lead, and you're at the top setting an anchor, I get right of way as the leader, and you let me lead and clean it before you toss your rope for a TR.  

I never felt it meant I could simply jump on something that someone else had already set up a TR on. 

^^ This ^^