Sport climbing top rope: 2 quickdraws anchors, what's your take?

I do think having at least one locker rope side is a good idea.   I was belaying a friend who was TRing a sport climb with the standard two opposed QDs, and for whatever reason, a twist formed up in the rope, which was kind of a stiff rope, as he got to the anchor. As it tried to untwist itself by riding its way through the anchor biners over to the other side of the rope, it pushed against the gate and unclipped the rope from one QD.

He saw it happen and all was fine, still had one QD fine, but it was no longer a redundant anchor setup as expected, and more than a little unsettling.  Use a locker.  Its easy piece of mind. 

s.price wrote:

The context was lost with your diaper statement. She lacks in nothing when it comes to leading, at the sport crag or at altitude. And still manages to find what she is looking for with climbing when she doesn't take the sharp end. Your remarks come off as ego centric simply because you place a higher value on certain rewards of climbing than others.

I also value those same rewards so I can relate. But the diaper thing is you just thumpin your chest. 

NOT thumping my chest or talking about your partner. I'm just berating the TR as it is most commonly (ab)used these days. I think leading builds character and should be encouraged always. Sometimes by discouraging the TR. 

When we are all too old to climb, and wearing actual diapers, we won't look back on our days of TRing and revel in the glory of having ropes clumsily bouncing in our faces as we inconsequentially meander up the rock. We WILL remember the spooky run-outs and the lessons we learned while dealing with all of the finest emotions this life has to offer on the sharp end. 

I guess I am trying to say, one should aim to forge amazing memories in this ephemeral life, not mediocre ones. More of a Hunter S. philosophy. It clearly isn't for everyone. 

NWNINJA wrote:

Tommy can do whatever he wants, he certainly isn't TRing because he lacks the fortitude or ability to climb. Context....

Both a red herring and a non-sequitur...

No, you made a rather extreme value judgement about toproping, I provided a rather obvious counter example.  Not even remotely a non sequitur, as TC routinely TR rehearses pitches (including most of the Dawn Wall) yet still climbs harder than any of us.  Your attitude is certainly applicable for gym climbing.

tallguy wrote:

I do think having at least one locker rope side is a good idea.   I was belaying a friend who was TRing a sport climb with the standard two opposed QDs, and for whatever reason, a twist formed up in the rope, which was kind of a stiff rope, as he got to the anchor. As it tried to untwist itself by riding its way through the anchor biners over to the other side of the rope, it pushed against the gate and unclipped the rope from one QD.

He saw it happen and all was fine, still had one QD fine, but it was no longer a redundant anchor setup as expected, and more than a little unsettling.  Use a locker.  Its easy piece of mind. 

+1 for the bold section. I'll climb on two draws but having at least one locker on the rope side gives me the warm fuzzies. 

NWNINJA wrote:

...

While we're talking about life advice: Don't be a prat.

NWNINJA wrote:

Perhaps I have tried... and found it to be completely lacking in the experiences I value in climbing:  managing fear, breathing, pump, and a multitude of other tactics one must employ to clip the chains. TR attenuates all of these factors, you can just take a dump whenever you feel like quitting, no commitment. This doesn't seem like a valuable experience to me. 

Are you suggesting that ground-up is more "diaper deal" than TR flailing? You might have a hard time defending that position. 

It doesn't really sound like you have, as TRing steep routes is actually harder than leading them in most cases as there's no stopping, no resting, no respite from the pump and you have to figure our the moves while climbing, not resting. Fall and you start at the bottom again; not rest and get back on. And I'm not exactly sure how to even interpret your "multitude of other tactics one must employ to clip the chains" comment. And if we're talking sport climbing, which I don't do much of, than I honestly prefer to just TR when possible and focus on the uninterrupted movement dispensing with all the faux clipping - not really my thing all in all though.

This thread, though...

Healyje wrote:

Pop quiz!

Which is potentially more dangerous by orders of magnitude:

a) two opposing non-locking biners on a sport anchor

b) your belayer

Your belayer?

NWNINJA wrote:

Friends don't let friends TR. 

TRing = wearing  a diaper. 

Seriously?  Tell that to Tommy Caldwell....

Ted Pinson wrote:

This thread, though...

C'mon gang... we gotta stretch this non-issue (OP's question) to 10 pages.

Gunkiemike wrote:

C'mon gang... we gotta stretch this non-issue (OP's question) to 10 pages.

Well, then, I think it's about time to address the issue of whether one should lower or rappel after cleaning those draws.

NWNINJA wrote:

NOT thumping my chest or talking about your partner. I'm just berating the TR as it is most commonly (ab)used these days. I think leading builds character and should be encouraged always. Sometimes by discouraging the TR. 

When we are all too old to climb, and wearing actual diapers, we won't look back on our days of TRing and revel in the glory of having ropes clumsily bouncing in our faces as we inconsequentially meander up the rock. We WILL remember the spooky run-outs and the lessons we learned while dealing with all of the finest emotions this life has to offer on the sharp end. 

I guess I am trying to say, one should aim to forge amazing memories in this ephemeral life, not mediocre ones. More of a Hunter S. philosophy. It clearly isn't for everyone. 

Someone want an issue worth another page or two???  Address this attitude.

Respectfully, speak entirely for yourself and do not project this out to others.

I would counter your statements with two climbers.

First, a very young lady, brand new to college, first time away from home, undoubtedly scared. Let's just say she had a history of non-athleticism and was very reluctant to even try climbing at the University gym, when the tour of the campus brought her there.

After almost everyone had moved on, with the encouragement of the wonderful staff (and, an ancient, totally unintimidating old lady climber), she roped up, and went perhaps 15-20 feet up.

When she came down, after very sincere hugs all around, she quietly admitted it was "not so bad, for a first time". 

Which implies a sea change in how she views her body, and, what might be possible.

Second climber? You.

The diaper remark is asinine, insulting, and simply rude.

I have climbing friends in my age group, which means hard bodies who were (or still are) the FAs who put up the routes in the first place.

Who do you think you are to insult those people? Many are still climbing harder than most of us ever could. 

But not all. Simply aging takes it's toll. Injuries, accidents, illness, cancer know no age limits, and you could be next. You.

Where us lowly top ropers in our diaper dotage (or not) will compassionately catch you when you finally take that fall off your high horses. Plural. You are not the first, nor last, to denigrate other climbers based on MP ticks (or lack of), ability, style, new/old, whatever. 

NWNINJA, do not take this personally. Your post simply needed a reply. You (and just about everyone who posts on here) have a valuable voice to contribute, please, please do so. With respect, and humbleness. Both projects I have been told to work on. Let's throw compassion in there too.

Best, Helen

Acceptable af.  Keep in mind that doing this will wear out the bottom carabiners of the draws pretty fast.  I usually don't keep track of which draws I use for the top rope set up.   It ends up being whatever I have left on the harness.   What's annoying about this is that I have more wear than others on my quickdraws.  Also,  building solid and equalized anchors is still a great skill to have.  Don't neglect it.

Johnny Ink wrote:

Acceptable af.  Keep in mind that doing this will wear out the bottom carabiners of the draws pretty fast.  I usually don't keep track of which draws I use for the top rope set up.   It ends up being whatever I have left on the harness.   What's annoying about this is that I have more wear than others on my quickdraws.  Also,  building solid and equalized anchors is still a great skill to have.  Don't neglect it.

FrankPS wrote:

If you routinely toprope off of two draws, consider having two dedicated draws with locking steel carabiners on the rope end

Ted Pinson wrote:

I am so confused - why are you referencing the OP in 3rd person?  For that matter, why are you arguing with everyone in this thread as if you know what you're talking about, when your asking the question indicates that you don't?

Woah, that escalated quickly. Sorry I meant the guy who first thought that a sliding X is a way to prevent shock loading an anchor...

Well as for where the question comes from - I've been doing that for quite a while actually, but every once in a while when I set a TR this way (because it's just one person who wants to try it, or only one or a few in the party TR), someone mentions a "proper" anchor etc etc... My answer to that has always been it's a perfectly acceptable way to set a TR anchor (provided there's nothing weird about the setup above), however I was curious to hear what others think about it. I might have been proven wrong in my assumption that it is for the most part a fine setup.

By the way, I'm not sure why you would feel the need to be so condescendant - even IF I'm a newbie looking for clues about sport anchor, wouldn't it actually be a GOOD thing to ask the question? Like why would you feel thee need to make those assumptions?

Healyje wrote:

It doesn't really sound like you have, as TRing steep routes is actually harder than leading them in most cases as there's no stopping, no resting, no respite from the pump and you have to figure our the moves while climbing, not resting. Fall and you start at the bottom again; not rest and get back on. And I'm not exactly sure how to even interpret your "multitude of other tactics one must employ to clip the chains" comment. And if we're talking sport climbing, which I don't do much of, than I honestly prefer to just TR when possible and focus on the uninterrupted movement dispensing with all the faux clipping - not really my thing all in all though.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiMr6fPsK_VAhXC8YMKHdwECkYQyCkIKjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbsAiOYXC-k0&usg=AFQjCNEH_zbUzXeIT9sNOG8X51vy4Mnkvw

Guy Keesee wrote:

Andrew.... normally when your going to lead a climb that has a top rope and draws on it..... you pull the cord down and get it out of the way. 

My friends and I use two draws on anchor almost always... if a gang is going to TR we use Alpine Draws... one side with lockers the other side without. Cause its a pain to unlock a locker so you can clip the anchor. 

  

Thanks for clarifying. And I understand your point. I still think, though, that if you were going to lead a climb placing draws along the way you hopefully are able to deal with putting your last draw in and clipping that, too. I don't know many top anchors I can think of that don't have room for  another draw to be placed even if someone left a locker there. 

Have done this many times without problems as mentioned above.

Didn't read the whole thread but here's my take. When there are top ropers in the crew I will take two alpine draws with a locker on one end and regular biner on the other end. The locker of one alpine draw clips the left anchor and the regular biner of the other alpine draw clips the right anchor (reversed at rope attachment). That way people leading don't have to unscrew a locker at the top of the route but top ropers can have the added security of a locker in the system. Being that they are alpine draws the can be alongated to equalize as best as possible if the anchors are set at different levels (or if rock protrusions are hitting the gates next wierd ways). If I have forgotten to take these along I still have no issue hanging apposed quickdraws for a tr setup unless the route setter seriously f'd up the anchor placement. Just a simple extra step to make people feel safer. 

Good god how is this thread FIVE PAGES long?!