Edelrid MegaJul Belay Device

Paul Deger wrote:

Just tried out the Mega Jul 2 - I found it easier to use than its forerunner. Only drawback is weight and need for rappel device, I always carry an F8 anyways. This is my new go-to.

Are you referring to the Jul2 (https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5049-440/Jul2-Belay-Device)

Or is there an update to the MegaJul? (https://www.rei.com/media/product/867679)

Didn't bother reading entire above thread just gonna add my experience:

I own a mega jul and I love it.  It does exactly what I expect in that it is an assisting lock device.  It has never failed to lock up/ catch a fall, but of course just like a grigri I always keep my brake hand on.  I love how light it is for alpine, and that I can repell on multipitch ect.  Although it sucks to repell in locking mode, just turn it around and use a prusik.  I also like that it can be used in guide mode.  (I understand people belay with a grigri directly of an ancho but that's not technically recommended, whatever).  It can be a little jerky on rapell or when lowering a partner, not too bad just not as smooth as an atc, worth it imo.

One other thing is its now good for jugging a line, I like to jug a line with 1 ascender and 1 grigri, and the mega jul won't replace the grigri here.  

Systematic wrote:

Are you referring to the Jul2 (https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5049-440/Jul2-Belay-Device)

Or is there an update to the MegaJul? (https://www.rei.com/media/product/867679)

The first one. If weight and only carrying one device is key, then the second better choice. I find the larger thumb hook more comfortable on the first and less "grabby." 

Tl;dr, great assisted brake, guide mode is garbage because of too much friction, wait for the atc pilot. 

I just finished reading all 13 pages of this thread.

Thanks to Jim, Rich, and everyone who's contributed. I've learned a lot about the forces at play during a fall.

My takeaway is that the Megajul, which I own and love, may allow some slippage in a factor 2 fall, leading to rope burns on the belayer's hands. So in situations where such falls are possible, it's a really good idea to belay with gloves on. Did I get it right? 

Jeff Tang wrote:

I just finished reading all 13 pages of this thread.

Thanks to Jim, Rich, and everyone who's contributed. I've learned a lot about the forces at play during a fall.

My takeaway is that the Megajul, which I own and love, may allow some slippage in a factor 2 fall, leading to rope burns on the belayer's hands. So in situations where such falls are possible, it's a really good idea to belay with gloves on. Did I get it right? 

Kinda. Better yet, ditch the mega-jul and get a similar but better device (smart or smart alpine) or a click-up/alpine up. Or just a camming style assisted braking the device. The take away from this discussion should have been "the mega-jul can't do it's job in a high factor fall." Get something that can.

Jeff Tang wrote:

I just finished reading all 13 pages of this thread.

Thanks to Jim, Rich, and everyone who's contributed. I've learned a lot about the forces at play during a fall.

My takeaway is that the Megajul, which I own and love, may allow some slippage in a factor 2 fall, leading to rope burns on the belayer's hands. So in situations where such falls are possible, it's a really good idea to belay with gloves on. Did I get it right? 

Forget the fall factor stuff, all you need is a fall producing a larger force than you can hold and with enough energy that the rope slip is more than your skin can cope with. Anything more than about 1 to 1.5m slip is bad news and the variability in the hand force of climbers is enormous (and you will never know what you can hold until you test it). Single-pitch you are unlikely to ever experience any problems unless you have a thin, brand new rope and are a bit weak, multi-pitch I´d never allow myself to be belayed with a Megajul.

Having returned to climbing after a 20 yr hiatus, it was amazing to see change in ropes. Back in the day, we climbed on single 11 or double nines. With today's skinny singles and dry treatment, seems like much less friction for stopping power.

Paul Deger wrote:

Having returned to climbing after a 20 yr hiatus, it was amazing to see change in ropes. Back in the day, we climbed on single 11 or double nines. With today's skinny singles and dry treatment, seems like much less friction for stopping power.

This is so, guys like Joe Healy will rattle on about hip belays and no one was dropped and I also come from the days of 1/2" hawser laid ropes and have held falls(and been held) using a waist belay, once kernmantle ropes appeared belaying became a problem and the switch to using mechainical devices was rapid for good reason. The treatments and consturction of modern ropes, all in the interests of better handling and the equipment reviewers emphasis on the desirability of slick feeding of belay devices all go to make the actual braking power of most modern devices extremely questionable to put it nicely. Once you start seeing people getting rope burns rapping you know things aren´t what they really should be.

I'm fascinated by the way technology has changed the way climbing is done. I'm interested in history and historical methods. Not that I want to use them lol!

Jim Titt wrote:

Forget the fall factor stuff, all you need is a fall producing a larger force than you can hold and with enough energy that the rope slip is more than your skin can cope with. Anything more than about 1 to 1.5m slip is bad news and the variability in the hand force of climbers is enormous (and you will never know what you can hold until you test it). Single-pitch you are unlikely to ever experience any problems unless you have a thin, brand new rope and are a bit weak, multi-pitch I´d allow myself to be belayed with a Megajul.

Jim, did you mean you'd NEVER allow yourself to be belayed with a Megajul?

Edited!

Jim, you wouldn't even allow yourself to be velayed on a multipitch route with a Megajul even if the belayer were using gloves? How about with the Alpine Up, with or without gloves? 

Take a 9.2 to a 9.5  soft single rope - add a super duper dry treatment to it and they get pretty fast very quickly while new.   Even with a Gri Gri one needs to be careful lowering a heavy climber, it can be done safely of course but does require greater care.  I believe it's the waterproffing that causes much of the problem - it's extremely slick.  My wife now likes to wear gloves - never wanted them before.

Jeff Tang wrote:

Jim, you wouldn't even allow yourself to be velayed on a multipitch route with a Megajul even if the belayer were using gloves? How about with the Alpine Up, with or without gloves? 

Was curious to ask more or less the same. I always belay with gloves, and ask my belayers to use gloves (lending them mine in case), in any case (sport climbing single pitch, bolted multipitch, more trad-ish situations) so I wonder how much the "rope slippage" issue would matter in this case..

Vigorone wrote:

Was curious to ask more or less the same. I always belay with gloves, and ask my belayers to use gloves (lending them mine in case), in any case (sport climbing single pitch, bolted multipitch, more trad-ish situations) so I wonder how much the "rope slippage" issue would matter in this case..

1 meter of slippage could be the difference between hitting a ledge right as the rope catches you and hitting a ledge at full speed.

eli poss wrote:

1 meter of slippage could be the difference between hitting a ledge right as the rope catches you and hitting a ledge at full speed.

Couldn't 1 meter of rope slippage also be the difference between an injury and a merely painful catch when the falling climber is halted? It was my understanding that Jim's cautions regarding the Megajul concern the belayer getting rope burns from rope slippage (and also possibly dropping the climber because of the rope burns). Any belay device can allow rope slippage, as Jim's charts show; the Megajul just does it at a lower level of force than the devices we've been discussing. Jim, please correct me if I've misunderstood! 

Jeff Tang wrote:

Jim, you wouldn't even allow yourself to be velayed on a multipitch route with a Megajul even if the belayer were using gloves? How about with the Alpine Up, with or without gloves? 

Wearing gloves reduces the braking force even more so while the belayer doesn´t get rope burns the fall length is unescessarily increased, I´d just give the person another device instead.

The Alpine Up is another ball game as it has exceptional braking power when it locks up.  

Jeff Tang wrote:

Couldn't 1 meter of rope slippage also be the difference between an injury and a merely painful catch when the falling climber is halted? It was my understanding that Jim's cautions regarding the Megajul concern the belayer getting rope burns from rope slippage (and also possibly dropping the climber because of the rope burns). Any belay device can allow rope slippage, as Jim's charts show; the Megajul just does it at a lower level of force than the devices we've been discussing. Jim, please correct me if I've misunderstood! 

With a few exceptions all devices allow a bit of slip, the ideal situaltion is that the device is powerful enough that the belayer can reduce slip to a minimum OR allow however much they feel is required to protect marginal gear when ice climbing for example or to allow the faller to pass the lip of the roof they have just climbed. The half-automatic devices generally give the worst of both worlds, that is the braking power is often less than one would wish for but it´s effect is hard to modulate for the belayer.

With a conventional device of sufficient power one can allow considerably more slippage under control without danger of rope burns as the need to grip the rope hard is reduced.

Do the advantages of dry treatment outweigh the additional slippage (and cost!). Also, does the benefit of lower weight and less stretch in skinny ropes outweigh the lower friction?

i am hearing better braking with fatter untreated ropes.