Rappelling vs Lowering Ethics at Specific LA Crags

All the talk about stainless/plated....make sure you're not mixing. i.e. Plated bolt and stainless hanger, washer, etc.  Different types of metals interact and speed up the degradation process. Not trying to add more scary things to think about, but keeping a couple stainless and plated quick links handy will cover most anchor updates.

drjman wrote:

All the talk about stainless/plated....make sure you're not mixing. i.e. Plated bolt and stainless hanger, washer, etc.  Different types of metals interact and speed up the degradation process. Not trying to add more scary things to think about, but keeping a couple stainless and plated quick links handy will cover most anchor updates.

No,  this is sometimes important when talking about bolts and hangers, but when talking about quicklinks/rings/lowering off components it is largely irrelevant.  The problem with mixing metals is a type of corrosion called galvanic corrosion.  For galvanic corrosion to take place  you need an electrolyte between the two metals.  For the anchor components other than the bolt and hanger, any electrolyte is going to be so quickly evaporated after it is deposited that it really makes no difference in the overall life of the components, not to mention that wear on these components generally dictates their replacement rather than corrosion.  

drjman wrote:

All the talk about stainless/plated....make sure you're not mixing. i.e. Plated bolt and stainless hanger, washer, etc.  Different types of metals interact and speed up the degradation process. Not trying to add more scary things to think about, but keeping a couple stainless and plated quick links handy will cover most anchor updates.

Good to know. Not scary, I enjoy learning more about the hardware. 

Indeed Ken....there's a lot of bad and outdated advice on this thread. Lowering is NOT standard practice in all the aforementioned areas. Lowering wears the anchors faster then rappelling and the anchors are not as easy to replace as you suggest, otherwise there wouldn't be the consistent whining about worn out, dangerous anchors in need of replacement at Echo Cliffs, Malibu Creek, and other local areas. The idea of sport climbers inexperienced in the art of anchor replacement keeping a supply of quick links, Fixe rings, Mussy hooks, and steel carabiners in their packs for replacing worn anchors is insanity. If you'd ever replaced an anchor you'd know that often it's not as simple as unscrewing a nut or swapping out parts. Bolts often spin, break, or require specialized tools to replace. Anchor replacement isn't always quick, easy, or inexpensive. How often have you read a post where someone whines about loose and/or spinning hangers and how SOMEONE should fix it? Learn how to do an anchor change, rap the route, TR off personal gear, and preserve the integrity of the current anchors. 

Ben, I know you mean well. But it is a disservice to muddy the waters by ranting about lowering.

You claim above that our anchors are worn from lowering. That is false. The real culprit is top-roping directly through the permanent hardware.

I do agree however that having beginners take on the problem wholesale is not a solution. Adding quicklinks is an ad hoc, temporary fix anyway.

And this introduces the larger, more central issue:

The real answer should be two-fold. Everyday folks reporting worn anchors and then developers fixing the problem. But that isn't working, for the most part developers aren't stepping up.

If anyone is interested in helping with anchor replacement and maintenance at Echo and Malibu, let me know. I think a regular thing could be in order.

I may have access to quality donated materials as well.

And don't hesitate to reach out directly to report the worst offending anchors. Hearing from people fresh off the route is motivating. Send me a text or email.

805-850-8364

info@ojaialex.com

Alex...you make some good points. TRing through the anchor is a major culprit in worn anchors. And a cry has gone out to replace worn anchors with stainless steel, but you can't expect the developers to pony up for the initial cost of hardware and then expect them to maintain and/or upgrade to stainless. That would certainly slow the pace of new route development if developers were made to assess and maintain all their past routes.Time for a donation box affixed to the anchor or a Viking Squad to take on the task of raising funds and replacing worn hardware. 

Benjamin Chapman wrote:

 Time for a donation box affixed to the anchor or a Viking Squad to take on the task of raising funds and replacing worn hardware. . 

Just an FYI, some employers will match employee donations. So I've been donating to http://www.safeclimbing.org/ because they get $2 for every $1 I give. 

Edit: Bad grammar

Benjamin Chapman wrote:

Alex...you make some good points. TRing through the anchor is a major culprit in worn anchors. And a cry has gone out to replace worn anchors with stainless steel, but you can't expect the developers to pony up for the initial cost of hardware and then expect them to maintain and/or upgrade to stainless. Time for a donation box affixed to the anchor or a Viking Squad to take on the task of raising funds and replacing worn hardware. That would certainly slow the pace of development if new route developers were made to assess and maintain all their past routes and development. 

It would be awesome, really, to know to whom we can direct $$$ for this kind of thing. For example, I know Jeff (Medusa) does a huge amount of overseeing the care of Tick Rock. A couple times I've given him $50 or $60 toward the cost of all that. And I'm happy to keep doing it. I'd gladly contribute similarly to anyone doing that sort of upkeep at Echo and other local crags. Probably much better than me trying to do it myself.

If in doubt, you can (and should!) contribute to the ASCA.

http://www.safeclimbing.org

AndrewArroz wrote:

It would be awesome, really, to know to whom we can direct $$$ for this kind of thing. For example, I know Jeff (Medusa) does a huge amount of overseeing the care of Tick Rock. A couple times I've given him $50 or $60 toward the cost of all that. And I'm happy to keep doing it. I'd gladly contribute similarly to anyone doing that sort of upkeep at Echo and other local crags. Probably much better than me trying to do it myself.

I'll take donations for Echo or Malibu. I'd like to focus on those two crags. If you are concerned about anchors elsewhere let me know and I'll consider checking it out.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

If in doubt, you can (and should!) contribute to the ASCA.

http://www.safeclimbing.org

I've done that, and will continue to, but that doesn't solve the problem of specific anchors at specific places I climb.

As someone that keeps learning and wants to learn more about climbing, I've been interested in this topic for quite some time. I've been in situations when I'm climbing a route and encounter a bad bolt (either on route or at anchors - sport and mixed routes) and at that moments I wish I could fix the problem instead of waiting for someone else to do it. So I'll post here that I'm eager to learn a new skill imperative to climbing at any crag to replace bad bolts/anchors. I'm LA local and free most weekends. I'm more of an "actions speak louder than words" kinda guy, so I'd like to learn and help and eventually be able to improve our local crags. 

Alex Bury wrote:

I'll take donations for Echo or Malibu. I'd like to focus on those two crags. If you are concerned about anchors elsewhere let me know and I'll consider checking it out.

Alex, can you post up here when you're ready to buy some stuff for the projects? I'd be happy to contribute. 

That's my thought on it. 

John Wilder wrote:

It does if you want to volunteer or know the volunteers who do work at the places you climb. Greg sends kit on request to those who are doing the replacement work. Directing funds to the ASCA allows Greg to buy in bulk and get more kit for less money, ensuring more anchors nationally get replaced per dollar spent.

That's great to know. Thanks.

Fernando Cal wrote:

As someone that keeps learning and wants to learn more about climbing, I've been interested in this topic for quite some time. I've been in situations when I'm climbing a route and encounter a bad bolt (either on route or at anchors - sport and mixed routes) and at that moments I wish I could fix the problem instead of waiting for someone else to do it. So I'll post here that I'm eager to learn a new skill imperative to climbing at any crag to replace bad bolts/anchors. I'm LA local and free most weekends. I'm more of an "actions speak louder than words" kinda guy, so I'd like to learn and help and eventually be able to improve our local crags. 

Fernando.....   good attitude, helping out is how our sport continues. No one is in charge it is up to us to keep our crags safe. 

But I wish to say one thing.....   I don't think we have any "bad bolts" in the local area and if you find one please let us know via MP where it is exactly. Right now there are three qualified people responding to this thread that I know of... so things can get fixxed if needed... you can help if you wish.

I know your pretty new and you might not know just what a "bad bolt" is. 

A little spinning hanger, a little bent shaft, a hanger at a weird angle ..... doesn't mean the thing is going to fail. 

In fact from my experience doing bolt replacement the ones that look the most hammered and ready to fail can be the hardest to pull and the perfect looking ones can just snap off at the slightest force. 

But to back to the OP.....   all I can say is this IMHO ONLY: Never TR through any anchor.... use your gear. And as far as getting down after cleaning a anchor-- it all depends. If a line is waiting behind you to finish and your looking at some sort of replaceable deal (Mussy, steel biner.. etc) lower ... so you can get out of the way quickly. Or if your looking at Rings or Cold Shuts then do what you think is best.  I always rap from those cheap short chain anchors... like the ones at NJC because they can put a big bunch of twistys into your rope. 

But what ever you do climb safe and have fun.... and take the time to say hi to fellow climbers when you see them. This makes for a better time at the crag.

peace

EDIT TO ADD.... send $$$ to ASCA. Greg is really great at giving out the $$$$$ for bolts and such, he is a prince among climbers for the selfless work he does for all of us. 

Guy...just curious who whose three qualified people are?  Yes, a great plug for donating to the ASCA, and Greg is a tireless princess, however, I've contacted Greg on two or three occasions regarding hardware to replace worn anchors locally and never received a response. 

Benjamin Chapman wrote:

Guy...just curious who whose three qualified people are?  Yes, a great plug for donating to the ASCA, and Greg is a tireless princess, however, I've contacted Greg on two or three occasions regarding hardware to replace worn anchors locally and never received a response. 

I'm actually in the same boat, I've contacted him a couple of times with no response.  I still replace a lot of anchors on my own, but it would certainly be nice to get some ASCA gear to use for some of the replacement work I do.

^^^+1^^^ I replace anchors and hardware on my own dime, but hear from and about people that get hardware from Greg and the ASCA routinely.