Mistake to trade BD cams for WC or Metolius?

Jeff Tang wrote

I bought a used Metolius Master Cam and Super Cam, and I have to say that I like the feel and perceived build and design quality. The BD does not impress me. The Camalot feels like something made to meet a standard, rather than exceed one like the Metolius products.

Put the bong down, and after you get some more trad climbs under your belt then you will be qualified to comment on the quality of different cams.

Jeff,

New Wild Country cams kickass.  Been climbing on them since they came out. Stoked that they added the .4 to the range.

I use aliens/totems for my fingers.

-Wade

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

Put the bong down, and after you get some more trad climbs under your belt then you will be qualified to comment on the quality of different cams.

But the bong is so much lighter than an equivalent cam and I get to hit it with a hammer. . .  

Seriously, though. I know I'm not qualified to make an experienced decision, which is why I'm asking about it here. And I never will be in that position if all I get to do is grope my friends' Camalots while they tell me not to buy anything else. My goal is to get some options to experiment with, not choose one cam just yet.

Consider taking the time to build a rack of C4s and Master Cams. In size, they complement each other well, as the MCs mostly fit between the C4s.

Note that the largest MC is a bit smaller than the #3 C4, which is a commonly used piece, so if you go with Metolius, you may need to add a Super Cam or two.

I have a set of DMM Dragons (virtually identical in size and range to the C4s) and the UL MCs and am very happy with that. It also gives me options for days when I don't need both. If I'm cragging with a short approach, I tend to take the Dragons because the larger lobes mean more metal on the rock, which I like. But for long approaches or long climbs, I like the MCs for the weight and space savings.

You know what is annoying? Looking down at a FrankenFuck™ rack where every size has the all the colors of the rainbow. When you are pumped as shit trying to place a piece the last thing you want to do is look down and fumble through your skittles rack looking for the right piece. So my advice is to try to stick to one as best you can. 

I suppose I'll be keeping my C4 #4!

I figure once I actually settle on a set or sets of cams, after I get more experience, I would perhaps mark the biners with paint or nail polish to designate the sizes if I have multiple color schemes on my rack. Ideally I'd love to figure out a way to distinguish them by touch.

Numbers actually make more sense to me than colors. Color coding confuses me, in part because there are so many different color schemes in my life already.

I definitely don't intend to have a frankenrack forever.

New wild country cams are better than C4's, that being said my only regret about my cams is that i didn't get entirely totem cams up to size 2.

Seb brings up a good point - the only thing Mountain Project can agree on is that Totems are the best. 

I'll definitely have to a try some Totems, too.

TS, listen to Greg.  Frankenracks are a nightmare.  You have to think not just about how you will use the rack, but how your partner will, as you will likely come into situations where you will be sharing gear and someone will have to follow you. Your gear comes preloaded with an organization scheme; why would you resort to your own coloring system?  This is just adding complexity for no purpose.  With colored cams and matching biners, you can hand your rack to anyone and they will be able to figure out what goes where; on a frankenrack, expect your second to bring up a jumbled mess with misplaced biners and disorder.

I'm not quite sure why you started this thread.  Was it for advice, or validation?  If the latter, sure!  Go for it, champ!  If not...an experienced climber (several, actually) is giving you very solid advice, which you are choosing to ignore.  So...what's the point? 

I think I have perfected my rack and it's a mix of the 3 brands in question. On my right hand side I keep a full rack including offsets of mastercams. For small cams I think they are the best. They rack VERY nice and I have great confidence in their placements. Takes a bit to get used to the black and green being a bit bendy.

On my left side I keep C4's starting at .3 and ending at the red #1 and I continue for larger stuff with WC helium friends. I hated the small helium friends. But in large sizes, they are great .Very light. I hate racking big C4's, the double axle design is great for placements but the inability to twist past 90deg I find they get caught on stuff ALL the time. I climb at the gunks, and it's typical to place a piece of gear above your head above a roof, and then climb through. I find the c4's on your rack get snagged on the roof or on slings I've placed, and at least once got me REALLY stuck mid roof pull. The helium friends can twist, and will let go of the sling or carabiner and they don't get snagged on the rock. However, the single axle on the WC friends you have to be more mindful of your placements. While they can't umbrella, they can pop fully open and rotate 90deg which reduces the size of the cam head by like 75% and then it can slip out of a flared crack or you have to dick around re-placing it. You just have to place it right the first time. So if I know there is a critical large cam placement I'll grab a friend's C4. LIke in Arch Direct. Mid roof you have to jam a big cam in a pocket and move on quickly. Very nice for a #3 C4 there IIRC.

i have c4's from .4 and up,  i have a set of x4's but dont really care for them, i do have a set of totem basics that i like better. but i went with what he majority have to keep it simple.

for me i learned alot of my trad climbing from guides, and all had c4's and then the smaller cams where either totems, or TCU's. with some x4's in the mix

In defense of the alleged "Frankenrack," using consistent color schemes for your racking biners mitigates most confusion. 

I prefer carrying one set of C4 and one set of Masters (minus the extra piece; I usually ditch the red or black). They overlap very well.  

Robin S wrote:

Furthermore, I've had an absolutely stellar customer service experience with Metolius when I had some cams resling (short story is it was fast, very cheap, and they did more work than they needed to and the cams looked amazing). 

I actually just heard from someone here that Metolius sends your cams back better than how they come in. Great to hear a second voice on that. 

Personally, I like the camalots A LOT, but for smaller sizes I agree- totem or mastercams feel better. Maybe it's because there's a somewhat different range of sizes? They're all great cams. and I feel like a mixed rack is just perfect for me. 

Lessons I've drawn from this discussion:

1) Metolius Master Cams and WC Heliums are also worthy choices, so I shouldn't just settle on Camalots without trying them. Also, Totems. At this point, though, I'm really liking what I read about Metolius and the prices are much better than WC or BD or Totems. So if I HAD to choose right now, I'd go with Master Cams.

2) Small cams perform differently than larger ones, and many climbers have a partial set of one make for small sizes and another partial set of another brand for larger sizes.  I'm guessing that the dividing line between large and small is somewhere around finger size, but I'm not totally clear on this.

3) Organization is important. Even if I could consistently put my rack in order, climbing is not usually a solitary sport and even if it were I'm nowhere near that point, so my partner will have to be able to easily do it, too. A frankenrack will be a problem in this respect, so it's something to avoid.

Unfortunately, short of buying 4 or 5 full sets, a frankenrack is going to be unavoidable as I try different models. Eventually, I hope to make a decision on what I'd like for small and for large sizes and fill in the gaps so I have a more organized rack instead of a bunch of various makes in random sizes.

4) Someone is always going to disagree with whatever decision I make, and a few more people are going to disagree with a decision they think I've made, particularly here on MP.

I'm going to keep a few of my Camalots, since I don't have a set of them anyway, and see if I can trade of otherwise acquire some of the older and some of the newer Master Cams, a few WC Heliums, and possibly some Totems. Both in small and large sizes. Thank you to everyone here who's commented and helped me figure out my course of action!

Nice distillation of the information Jeff. I think you'll do alright. And yes, finger size (.5 or .4) is about where the dividing line is.

I have a beautiful frankenrack of C4, MasterCam and Totem. I have a good use for each and every piece. You will too. 

Ryan Hamilton wrote:I have a beautiful frankenrack of C4, MasterCam and Totem. I have a good use for each and every piece. You will too. 

Glad I'm not the only one with this particular frankenrack! 

Ryan Hamilton wrote:

Nice distillation of the information Jeff. I think you'll do alright. And yes, finger size (.5 or .4) is about where the dividing line is.

I have a beautiful frankenrack of C4, MasterCam and Totem. I have a good use for each and every piece. You will too. 

I have full sets each of C4, Ultralight MasterCam, and Totem (except the Black).

IMHO C4s aren't bad, they're just not as good as the other two cams. The Master Cams feel nicer and are lighter and cheaper, so I can't see a reason to get C4s in sizes where the UL Master Cams exist. If I had the cash I'd go for Totems, otherwise UL Master Cams.

Robin S wrote:

Glad I'm not the only one with this particular frankenrack! 

Me too! It seems like a popular combo.

Chiming in on what we like, here's my way to try to be concise that is similar to what others have written I think:

• Black Diamond C4 and/or near clones (Dragons, new Friends) for mid-size cams and bigger;
• Mastercams and/or Aliens (or near clones--Totem basics) for smaller.

Dividing line is about .4 C4.

Not saying there aren't other great choices, but at least for me and what I've seen in the field for some years, the above will be a very satisfactory cam setup, and will also give you a rack that most regular trad climbers are comfortable with--standardization has some value if you're swapping leads.