microaggression? or having the overreaction?

Mike Brady wrote:

What is your point? Most men don't get treated the same as the elites either.  It seems that most elite female climbers don't really have a bone to pick in regards to the way they are treated by their peers......maybe it is because they are respected based on their actions which are widely known.

I like how everyone keeps cutting off my next sentence... which references all the "nice rack" comments on MP for pics of women sending sports bras. My point is that in the 80s and 90s, tights and booty shorts were in style for men.  Look at any magazine from this era and it's full of men in spandex and booty shorts.  I highly doubt normal guys wearing short shorts were taking shit for that decision on a normal basis at the time.  My dad wore short shorts to run, my FIL wore short shorts to climb.  It was just the style.  For some reason, now that it's in style for women, men feel it's appropriate to make sexual jokes about them in that attire.  I don't remember seeing any "nice bulge" comments on pics in issues of Rock and Ice and Climbing from the 80s and 90s (and we actually have most issues from that time). 

" It was intentional to drive home the message that women’s place in climbing is solely to be inebriated, cheerleader-fangirls for zee Honnold. "

Really?  
The author is clairvoyant?

Just more political trash talking.

AmandaM wrote:

I like how everyone keeps cutting off my next sentence... which references all the "nice rack" comments on MP for pics of women sending sports bras. My point is that in the 80s and 90s, tights and booty shorts were in style for men.  Look at any magazine from this era and it's full of men in spandex and booty shorts.  I highly doubt normal guys wearing short shorts were taking shit for that decision on a normal basis at the time.  My dad wore short shorts to run, my FIL wore short shorts to climb.  It was just the style.  For some reason, now that it's in style for women, men feel it's appropriate to make sexual jokes about them in that attire.  I don't remember seeing any "nice bulge" comments on pics in issues of Rock and Ice and Climbing from the 80s and 90s (and we actually have most issues from that time). 

Sorry there are crappy men out there who lack the slightest bit of tact. Do you think there aren't any analogous crappy women out there? The fact is that there are shitty people out there, both male and female, and lots of them. You can't just blame all men for the actions of some men, especially when some women do the same. People suck. 

Once again, there are bigger, more important issues such as sexual assault and the wage gap. Yes I that seeing these comments is creepy, especially when they are directed towards you. But it's the internet, so you're dealing with people who don't have a way of tracking you down and actually doing anything, unless they are a local. And in that case, you can seek help from law enforcement or even press charges like the ones facing Andy Lewis.

TLDR: these creepy comments may make you uncomfortable but they don't actually threaten your safety. Meanwhile, women (and men) are getting raped, so there are bigger fish to fry 

eli poss wrote:

Sorry there are crappy men out there who lack the slightest bit of tact. 

Entertain the possibility that you're one of them right now.

AmandaM wrote:

I like how everyone keeps cutting off my next sentence... which references all the "nice rack" comments on MP for pics of women sending sports bras. My point is that in the 80s and 90s, tights and booty shorts were in style for men.  Look at any magazine from this era and it's full of men in spandex and booty shorts.  I highly doubt normal guys wearing short shorts were taking shit for that decision on a normal basis at the time.  My dad wore short shorts to run, my FIL wore short shorts to climb.  It was just the style.  For some reason, now that it's in style for women, men feel it's appropriate to make sexual jokes about them in that attire.  I don't remember seeing any "nice bulge" comments on pics in issues of Rock and Ice and Climbing from the 80s and 90s (and we actually have most issues from that time). 

I wasn't attempting to mince your words, I was just responding to a single point you brought up.

As far as the "nice rack" comments. I would be amazed if you could produce a RI article that has a picture description with "Nice Rack". As far as that being a common comment on MP pictures, I would argue that it is much more the exception than the rule. Most of the comments like that are even met with wang slaps. 

eli poss wrote:

Sorry there are crappy men out there who lack the slightest bit of tact. Do you think there aren't any analogous crappy women out there? The fact is that there are shitty people out there, both male and female, and lots of them. You can't just blame all men for the actions of some men, especially when some women do the same. People suck. 

Once again, there are bigger, more important issues such as sexual assault and the wage gap. Yes I that seeing these comments is creepy, especially when they are directed towards you. But it's the internet, so you're dealing with people who don't have a way of tracking you down and actually doing anything, unless they are a local. And in that case, you can seek help from law enforcement or even press charges like the ones facing Andy Lewis.

TLDR: these creepy comments may make you uncomfortable but they don't actually threaten your safety. Meanwhile, women (and men) are getting raped, so there are bigger fish to fry 

This deserves slightly more attention than my first flippant response.

The creepy photo behavior she's talking about, and sexual assault and the wage gap, ARE THE SAME PROBLEM. That's why the term "rape culture" exists, to describe the way it's not just some bad men who rape, but an entire culture that functions to permit and excuse it. No, someone saying "nice rack" is not explicitly endorsing raping women. Of course not, that would be obviously wrong, and nobody would think it's okay! What it is doing is much more insidious, hard enough to pin down and easy enough to deny that it can fall into the blind spots of otherwise good men. What it's doing is implicitly encouraging looking down on women and treating them as objects to be valued for how much men enjoy them. Which implicitly encourages rape.

Why do you think the comments make women uncomforable? I think it's because they DO actually threaten womens' safety, and women know that.

Eric Fjellanger wrote:

Why do you think the comments make women uncomforable? I think it's because they DO actually threaten womens' safety, and women know that.

Comments threaten safety?
Dignity and identity, most certainly.  One of the reasons that MP once made a change to be able to delete comments on your stuff (later revised and admin controlled) was spurned by a complaint I had about comments that were made about some images of one of my female climbing partners.  It was 'yucky.'  I had them deleted.

But I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it 'rape culture' or say that it was a safety issue.  I think that kind of hyperbole prevents honest serious discussion of more relevant issues.  There are lots of people who are not going to entertain 'rape culture' discussions about why we don't objectify people.  I'm one of them, and I'm fairly 'feminist' for a guy.  I want my wife, daughter, and friends (half of which are female) to have it good, I guess.  But I don't engage that kind of discussion and see no point in it.  Nobody listens to chicken little in the end.  Rape is rape and talk about booty shorts is not rape.  It can be demeaning, but it is not rape, or rape culture.

I do think that there is discussion (not that article or the 'rape culture' sidetrack) is one that a lot of people might benefit from considering about how we see each other and how we talk about it.

There is a thread from 2009 here:  

Ogleing comes up now and then on MP.com

Mike Brady wrote:

I wasn't attempting to mince your words, I was just responding to a single point you brought up.

As far as the "nice rack" comments. I would be amazed if you could produce a RI article that has a picture description with "Nice Rack". As far as that being a common comment on MP pictures, I would argue that it is much more the exception than the rule. Most of the comments like that are even met with wang slaps. 

They are sometimes (certainly not always, and yes, now more than in the past, thats a good trend), but that doesnt stop the crusty dudes. Ol skeezy ben chapped lips is still at it in 2017

eli poss wrote:

Sorry there are crappy men out there who lack the slightest bit of tact. Do you think there aren't any analogous crappy women out there? The fact is that there are shitty people out there, both male and female, and lots of them. You can't just blame all men for the actions of some men, especially when some women do the same. People suck. 

Once again, there are bigger, more important issues such as sexual assault and the wage gap. Yes I that seeing these comments is creepy, especially when they are directed towards you. But it's the internet, so you're dealing with people who don't have a way of tracking you down and actually doing anything, unless they are a local. And in that case, you can seek help from law enforcement or even press charges like the ones facing Andy Lewis.

TLDR: these creepy comments may make you uncomfortable but they don't actually threaten your safety. Meanwhile, women (and men) are getting raped, so there are bigger fish to fry 

When did I blame all men for anything?  And when did I say that I feel threatened by any of the "nice rack" comments? My original post was entirely meant to point out what I see as a double standard in Cedar's original comment about climbing attire, which is something nobody had brought up and that I've heard other people point out in the past.  I should have known better to stick my neck out on a thread where 99% of the responses seem to be from angry men.  Doh!

Anonymous wrote:

I like how you didn't answer my question...

No, I didn't listen it.  Good for you for having the time to listen to a 60 minute podcast.  I am 6 months pregnant with a two-year old, so if I get an hour to myself, listening to Cedar Wright on a podcast is not at the top of my priority list.

Other people on this thread had already provided context for his statement, and as I said, the context you provided doesn't really change how I view it anyway. I only commented to begin with because even meant as a joke, it highlights a double standard that seems obvious to me.  But if others disagree, that's fine.

I read her article and I think she has a good point.  Additionally, I can't get my head around the phrase "taken seriously as a climber".   Like, how does that even go together?  Similar to "taken seriously as a skateboarder" or "taken seriously as a belly dancer".   Face it folks, it is just a fun past time, unless you are Alex Honnold or someone in his realm, no one "takes you seriously".

AmandaM wrote:

When did I blame all men for anything hing?  And when did I say that I feel threatened by any of the "nice rack" comments? My original post was entirely meant to point out what I see as a double standard in Cedar's original comment about climbing attire, which is something nobody had brought up and that I've heard other people point out in the past.  I should have known better to stick my neck out on a thread where 99% of the responses seem to be from angry men.  Doh!

Perhaps you didn't, but I've had to deal with women who think that all men are spawns of Satan. And perhaps you should reword your statements about men to say some men if you don't buy into the bullshit that all men are evil and misogynistic. 

And to the other guy, no, the nice rack comments don't threaten women's safety in most cases. One can't knife you or rape you through the internet. Once again, real sexual assault or the associated legal system issues are a bit more dire than a nice rack comment. 

And to those who want to label me as misogynistic, perhaps your opinion would change if you actually met me. I certainly fit the label for many years, although I would challenge you to find a guy who grew up in the south that didn't fit  that label at some point in their life. I have always had values roughly aligned with feminism, but I used to have a taste for crude humor of all flavors. I have several friends who have been victims of sexual assault, both male and female. Unfortunately, most went unreported due to the aforementioned fucked up legal system. 

I also belong to one of the few western religions that actually treats their women well almost universally, except for a few ultra orthodox sects, Judaism. In fact in Halakhah, Jewish law, women are required to get an abortion if there is any reasonable chance that birth could threaten the mother's life. What's Christianity's take on abortion? 

Jaren Watson wrote:

On a totally unrelated note, this is a good example of humor resulting from unintended ambiguity. :)

Ha!  And being pregnant with a 25 pound "baby" is about the worst thing I can imagine right now. :)

eli poss wrote:

I also belong to one of the few western religions that actually treats their women well almost universally, except for a few ultra orthodox sects, Judaism. In fact in Halakhah, Jewish law, women are required to get an abortion if there is any reasonable chance that birth could threaten the mother's life. What's Christianity's take on abortion? 

Sorry, I know this is a bit off topic, but why is requiring that someone to get an abortion better than requiring someone not to get an abortion?  It's probably less damaging, since the situation doesn't come up very often, and most people would probably want to anyway, but a law dictating a personal choice like that hardly seems like a selling point for a woman-friendly religion...

climbing friend,

perhaps we may instead make fun of "cyclists" who wear form fitting spandex because the spandex it is "aerodynamic," which is for certain assuredly the only reason one is wearing, and not perhaps for any other reason? And the "cycling" it is the only known sport where you are sticking inanimate object up butt for several hours and would then try to have fun?

Kedron Silsbee wrote:

Sorry, I know this is a bit off topic, but why is requiring that someone to get an abortion better than requiring someone not to get an abortion?  It's probably less damaging, since the situation doesn't come up very often, and most people would probably want to anyway, but a law dictating a personal choice like that hardly seems like a selling point for a woman-friendly religion...

Well to me it seems more women's rights friendly the what currently exists in some states' laws, that one cannot get an abortion even if birth is life threatening. But perhaps that was a bad example. The point is, Jews tend to treat women better than others, all else equal.

it's interesting that the author of this article mentions Muslim women, many of whom, coincidentally, would probably find booty shorts offensive.

if I recall correctly, there was a Muslim climber from the UAE in Navi Mumbai bouldering qualifiers & semi-finals a couple of weeks ago who wore a hijab and tights on her arms and legs. I must have missed her inflammatory article about occidental people or how pissed she was that their views on skin exposure objectify women or reinforce rape culture.. probably because she was too busy being a normal person (not to mention crushing) to write something like that.

many actions will offend many people. as a general rule, i feel if you want respect, pay attention to your surroundings and give respect to those around you. as a personal anecdote, if you're one of the 16 year olds at my air conditioned gym who wear booty shorts and low cut tops (for functional reasons, right?) and you want my respect, cover yourself up and focus on the climbing. the same goes for the shirtless, spray-on-tanned 16 year old dudes too.

the kosak wrote:

it's interesting that the author of this article mentions Muslim women, many of whom, coincidentally, would probably find booty shorts offensive.

if I recall correctly, there was a Muslim climber from the UAE in Navi Mumbai bouldering qualifiers & semi-finals a couple of weeks ago who wore a hijab and tights on her arms and legs. I must have missed her inflammatory article about occidental people or how pissed she was that their views on skin exposure objectify women or reinforce rape culture.. probably because she was too busy being a normal person (not to mention crushing) to write something like that.

many actions will offend many people. as a general rule, i feel if you want respect, pay attention to your surroundings and give respect to those around you. as a personal anecdote, if you're one of the 16 year olds at my air conditioned gym who wear booty shorts and low cut tops (for functional reasons, right?) and you want my respect, cover yourself up and focus on the climbing. the same goes for the shirtless, spray-on-tanned 16 year old dudes too.

Pervert quit ogling children at the gym...