Fixe PLX HCR - "New"? Metal as alt to Titanium?

John Byrnes wrote:

You meant specious, not spurious.   And you're twisting what I said.  I said SCC is not rare, and it's not.  

However, it's rather clear to me that stainless steel is would not be appropriate for any limestone area in Thailand.   Do you warn them of that, Jim?

Good Lord, that would be the industry trying to influence the customer. Next thing I´d become a vile industry lobbyist.

Since I´ve never been to Thailand (and have no intention of going there and supporting an oppressive military dictatorship) I´ve no idea about what the conditions are like there. The guys who live there probably know best.

No problem with SCC in the North of Thailand. South for sure, and aggressively so however Crazy Horse has not had any corrosion issues recorded since bolting began nearly 20 years ago.

The fixing standard is 316 and Hilti RE500 but that would change if corrosion manifested itself. There is a comprehensive database of every bolt, anchor installed, by who and when with the materials recorded.

Francis Haden wrote:

No problem with SCC in the North of Thailand. South for sure, and aggressively so however Crazy Horse has not had any corrosion issues recorded since bolting began nearly 20 years ago.

The fixing standard is 316 and Hilti RE500 but that would change if corrosion manifested itself. There is a comprehensive database of every bolt, anchor installed, by who and when with the materials recorded.

Well, that's really surprising.  I didn't think the climate/environment was all that different between the two.  Is Crazy Horse limestone or some other rock?  How far from the sea?  What's the elevation?   I'm really curious.

John Byrnes wrote:

Well, that's really surprising.  I didn't think the climate/environment was all that different between the two.  Is Crazy Horse limestone or some other rock?  How far from the sea?  What's the elevation?   I'm really curious.

Hi John,

More than likely a similar environment (tropical karst) but with a key difference being the distance inland so airborne marine salts less likely (perhaps) to be involved. Alan asked me the same question last year regarding the distance away from the coast and a direct line was measured to be just over 300km to the nearest point in the Gulf of Martaban.

All limestone.

We're very aware of SCC (and other types of corrosion) with myself and others having done re-bolting work down south so hardware is inspected and any maintenance noted in the database but the area is n't suffering from any corrosion yet in nearly 20 years. No ugly rust streaks etc.

If we were to detect any corrosion then I'd send the affected sample off to Tomas via the UIAA so we could form a technical understanding for the reasons why. 

Cheers

Climbing in Sicily (San Vito lo Capo) on the older multis we saw no red rust but some kinda whitish crust around some of the bolts. Backed up the belay anchors with gear... Was 1-2km from the Med shore.

As for SS vs PS corrosion - few weeks ago I left a PS chain to lockup my new SS BBQ on the BBQ, it rained, then hot sun for a few hrs - now I have  a whitish chain-stain on the BBQ. I M SO SMRT. Anyway, electromigration can occur, and quick.

Francis Haden wrote:

Hi John,

More than likely a similar environment (tropical karst) but with a key difference being the distance inland so airborne marine salts less likely (perhaps) to be involved. Alan asked me the same question last year regarding the distance away from the coast and a direct line was measured to be just over 300km to the nearest point in the Gulf of Martaban.

All limestone.

We're very aware of SCC (and other types of corrosion) with myself and others having done re-bolting work down south so hardware is inspected and any maintenance noted in the database but the area is n't suffering from any corrosion yet in nearly 20 years. No ugly rust streaks etc.

If we were to detect any corrosion then I'd send the affected sample off to Tomas via the UIAA so we could form a technical understanding for the reasons why. 

Cheers

This will be an interesting 'test" case, especially since you have the data concerning when/where all the bolts were installed.  Also, with your rebolting experience, you know what to look for if the bolts do start to show signs of corroding.

The general "wisdom" is that, while the sea contains all the ingredients for SCC in abundance, limestone, in and of itself, contains all those same ingredients in smaller quantities.  Rain liberates those ingredients which then dries on the bolts, and etc., so it's just a matter of time.  20 years is a good chunk of time, far better than anywhere else I'm aware of with tropical conditions.

Warm temperatures accelerate SCC.   At 18 degrees latitude, CH will get direct sun at some time of year no matter which way it faces.   Is it cooler (elevation) than Southern Thailand?

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what happens.  

And.............

"At FIXE, we have detected a tendency towards oxidation in marine environments that is very high and unusual in some shipments of FIXE-1 PLX hangers.
The detected products have a batch number between 0116 and 2216. The first two figures are between 01 and 22 and the last two are always 16."

http://www.theuiaa.org/home/recall-notification-from-fixe-climbing/

Ken Chase wrote:

And.............

"At FIXE, we have detected a tendency towards oxidation in marine environments that is very high and unusual in some shipments of FIXE-1 PLX hangers.
The detected products have a batch number between 0116 and 2216. The first two figures are between 01 and 22 and the last two are always 16."

http://www.theuiaa.org/home/recall-notification-from-fixe-climbing/

And the photo.

That photo doesnt actually look like SCC which is the issue at hand. That looks more like traditional PS corrosion after the zinc has been sacrificed...

Got my notice in the mail today. Not that I have to rush out and chop my gear, but Id like to know what I bought and when so I can kinda mentally remember where I mighta placed it and keep a special eye on it (which is a ridiculous paranoia anyway since people are STILL climbing on PS bolts that Im slowly replacing, so far only the most obvious ones have been though... big job, at just one crag of like 10 within 1.5hrs). Im actually fairly certain I didnt get around to placing any PLX yet though (and MEC only now getting PLX bolts to match the hangers).

Ken Chase wrote:

That photo doesnt actually look like SCC which is the issue at hand. That looks more like traditional PS corrosion after the zinc has been sacrificed...

Actually, it does looks like many hangers I've seen with SCC.   It kinda looks like there's a crack in it, that is somewhat lined-up with the person's cuticle, hard to tell for sure.

Got my notice in the mail today. Not that I have to rush out and chop my gear, but Id like to know what I bought and when so I can kinda mentally remember where I mighta placed it and keep a special eye on it (which is a ridiculous paranoia anyway since people are STILL climbing on PS bolts that Im slowly replacing, so far only the most obvious ones have been though... big job, at just one crag of like 10 within 1.5hrs). Im actually fairly certain I didnt get around to placing any PLX yet though (and MEC only now getting PLX bolts to match the hangers).

If you placed them somewhere near Toronto, I wouldn't worry all that much.  

John Byrnes wrote:

Actually, it does looks like many hangers I've seen with SCC.   It kinda looks like there's a crack in it, that is somewhat lined-up with the person's cuticle, hard to tell for sure.

If you placed them somewhere near Toronto, I wouldn't worry all that much.  

Ah, good eye - suprising the rest of the corrosion looking like traditional rust. When I was in italy we saw some curious white stuff on a buncha the hangers, climbing in San Vito lo Capo 1km from the Med -- a few were covered with white crust that wasnt just salt - we backed them up with pro. Didnt look like the photo at all.

As for Toronto area, limestone dominates climbing, so there is the potential for the right mineral combinations I hear - especially in some areas where the limestone is somehow very dark (almost black), slab facing towards the sun and in a seep zone - Ive seen bolts sitting in wet on rock that's too hot to touch in summer (and in other cases the bolts are what have pierced an aquifer behind and are where the seep is coming out). Lots of chemistry going on there for sure at even >50C at times.

All these problems would be solved entirely if people just used titanium. If Fixe is so driven to make a better product maybe they should find a way to source titanium at a more reasonable cost and offer titanium bolts in the states at a competitive price instead of making an inferior product for the same price.

How exactly do you "find" titanium at anything other than the market price? Unless of course you start buying low-quality stuff which will then start giving problems like their previous stainless products. 

And then, as the standards require all parts of the anchor are of the same material you´ll need to make titanium bolt-ins as well and that isn´t going to be a budget option!

The corrosion shown is virtually inconceivable with a normal duplex grade so exactly what Fixe did to produce that corrosion is "interesting".

Jim Titt wrote:

How exactly do you "find" titanium at anything other than the market price? Unless of course you start buying low-quality stuff which will then start giving problems like their previous stainless products. 

And then, as the standards require all parts of the anchor are of the same material you´ll need to make titanium bolt-ins as well and that isn´t going to be a budget option!

The corrosion shown is virtually inconceivable with a normal duplex grade so exactly what Fixe did to produce that corrosion is "interesting".

Why make titanium bolt-ins? If the environment is that corrosive that it requires titanium then wouldn't you want a glue-in instead of a bolt-in? 

Jim Titt wrote:

As someone who has spent many "vacation days" replacing ~500 corroded stainless bolts, I find the price of a Ti bolt to be an excellent value because it will pretty much last forever. Everyone is hung-up on the initial cost and never considers the long-term cost.  Once you've labored for weeks and weeks replacing stainless bolts without pay (or even much acknowledgement) you'll gladly pay twice the price to never have to do it again.  

Ken Chase wrote:

Ah, good eye - suprising the rest of the corrosion looking like traditional rust. 

Initially, SCC cracks are microscopic.  As the cracks proceed into the steel, Cr (which is the main reason stainless is stainless) is liberated, leaving common steel, which rusts.

When I was in italy we saw some curious white stuff on a buncha the hangers, climbing in San Vito lo Capo 1km from the Med -- a few were covered with white crust that wasnt just salt - we backed them up with pro. Didnt look like the photo at all.

Could be several things, but most likely re-precipitated limestone.  Were tufas and stalactites common?

As for Toronto area, limestone dominates climbing, so there is the potential for the right mineral combinations I hear - especially in some areas where the limestone is somehow very dark (almost black), slab facing towards the sun and in a seep zone - Ive seen bolts sitting in wet on rock that's too hot to touch in summer (and in other cases the bolts are what have pierced an aquifer behind and are where the seep is coming out). Lots of chemistry going on there for sure at even >50C at times.

That will be an interesting area to watch.  Just remember that SCC starts in low humidity conditions, when the water evaporates; not when they are wet.

eli poss wrote:

Why make titanium bolt-ins? If the environment is that corrosive that it requires titanium then wouldn't you want a glue-in instead of a bolt-in? 

The topic is corrosion on a bolt-in hanger and 20kN´s solution was make them from titanium. I virtually never use bolt-ins anyway, probably 150 in the last ten years on multi-pitch ground up ascents.

John Byrnes wrote:

Com'on Jim.  You know damned well that larger volumes, capitalization and competition will bring down the price of a Ti bolt.   

And you also know that spewing about "low-quality stuff will then start giving problems" is hyperbole, and MORE likely to happen with stainless steel providers (eg. Fixe hangers this thread, eh?).

What's a "bolt-in".  Care to elucidate?

There´s always a bottom limit to pricing and for a niche luxury product like titanium climbing bolts it´s unlikely anyone will go below it, nobody NEEDS to produce at dumping prices, they can do something else instead. For glue-ins there´s no attraction to produce against a non-profit supplier for an extremely limited market. You idea of larger volumes probably isn´t mine, I get inquiries about making ti bolts sometimes and the customers talk about volumes like 700 in the foreseeable future and such like, that´s enough to keep me busy until Wednesday morning! An order of 10,000 would be enough to make it worth starting production but still not enough for the volume to make any real benefit to the manufacturing costs since the next step would be more automation and the profit wouldn´t cover a substantial investment in new machinery. The problems and costs involved in making attractive lower-offs are another big disincentive to moving to titanium not to mention the "difficult" customer base.

If you don´t know what a bolt-in is you shouldn´t be on a fixed gear forum.

Our PS is all 15-25 years old mostly, and about 1/2 of it has been replaced due to mank. The other 1/2 is still pretty good. How long with SS304 last? (Is SCC that common?) Im thinking it might last 50-250 years - so it's hard to justify our Canadian-handicap pricing for everything ($20-25USD buy+ship+duty for Titanium glueins since no one is ordering in bulk - MEC.ca for eg has none) - can we justify 4x the cost per bolt so it lasts beyond 200 years? I can't see that far into the future (unless we're all extremely wrong about SS bolts/hangers, but so far, inspecting what has been placed over the last 10 years, it isn't that common here in our limestone).

We're under threat of MEC dropping the only leveraged buy climbers enjoy of SS304 KB3's ($3.70) now to go all PLX ($5.50CAD for 10x70mm bolt), even with my own small company qualifying for wholesale, at the #s I order, it's 50%+ more per bolt. Good luck with Titanium, I wont even find locals who agree to go all Ti for benefits beyond 200 years to get any sort of numbers for a big buy.

Economically, SS304 makes perfect sense in S. Ontario limestone considering the results of 15 years' use - looks like it'll last quite a while. I feel sorry for the guy replacing them again in 2217, but then again, his personal robot assistant will be doing it via jetpack anyway (or climbing and all other physical sports will be dropped for brain-interface VR games instead while nanobots in our blood install drugs to keep our bodies working/in shape). (SciFi movies have never lied to me about the future before, right?!)

Titanium is intended for sea cliffs which is the topic of discussion. I dont think anyone has suggested using titanium everywhere in every application. Also, 250 years for a 304 stainless bolt is an extreme overestimate. You'll probably get a quarter or so of that.