Gri-gri question for Jim Titt/Rich Gold other schmartie guys

Having recently caught a factor 2 (maybe really a factor 1.98) I got sucked into the first draw on the anchor and threw my hands out instinctively as I hit the wall. I think I kept my hand on the brake but either way the grigri held just fine. There are reports of people getting dropped with an ATC in similar situations (minus the factor 2) in gyms.

Alexander K wrote:

Having recently caught a factor 2 (maybe really a factor 1.98) I got sucked into the first draw on the anchor and threw my hands out instinctively as I hit the wall. 

The fall factor wasn't 1.98.  In order to get  the UIAA standard 1.76, the  leader would have to fall from 15 feet above the anchor, assuming the belay device was 2 feet below the anchor.  For 1.98 the leader would have to fall an entire (200 foot) ropelength.

anotherclimber wrote:

I never said I take my brake hand off of the rope, and I don't. There is a difference between terrible belay technique where one might take the brake hand off of the brake strand or hold the camming device of the Grigri open all the time, and sloppy. When you are always trusting a brake assisted belay device to do most of the work for you, it is easy to not be as focused, accurate, and quick in your belay technique. There is absolutely a need to brush up regularly on ones belay technique via using a non-brake assisted belay device. That is my opinion based on my own observations of myself, my climbing partners, and other people in the gym I watch belay. Do what you want.

Obviously, everyone is different, so that may well be the case with you.  I don't find that I belay any differently with a Grigri vs ATC.  I think the key is to develop and train good habits, which ATCs are much better for (which is why I do think people should learn to belay on one).

rgold wrote:

The fall factor wasn't 1.98.  In order to get  the UIAA standard 1.76, the  leader would have to fall from 15 feet above the anchor, assuming the belay device was 2 feet below the anchor.  For 1.98 the leader would have to fall an entire (200 foot) ropelength.

60+ ft fall on an R rated slab route, draw about 6 inches above the device due to where the bolts were off a small ledge. Maybe more like a 1.96, though the slabbyness and resulting skin loss reduces the fall force a little bit.

Something that was pointed out to me in hindsight was that in these situations it is best to give your self a 15 ft leash with a clove hitch and then lower yourself below the anchor off your partner before they start up. I however highly doubt that most people do this on R rated slab routes.

Ok, that really is a factor 1.97 fall.  Being on a slab changes the maximum impact substantially.

I don't know about "most people," but people definitely have the belayer hang below the anchor to reduce the fall factor and prevent a device-anchor collision. In this case, hanging 15 feet below the anchor would have lowered the fall factor to about 1.33.

rgold wrote:

Ok, that really is a factor 1.97 fall.  Being on a slab changes the maximum impact substantially.

I don't know about "most people," but people definitely have the belayer hang below the anchor to reduce the fall factor and prevent a device-anchor collision. In this case, hanging 15 feet below the anchor would have lowered the fall factor to about 1.33.

So, Alexander's climber basically pitched off the ledge, if I'm getting this?

Then, our hapless climber is merrily skidding down the slab, violently yanking the belayer upward into the draw (hard, but not far)?

With the belayer on a tether fifteen feet down, it is still a pretty significant fall factor, correct?

The question is, doesn't this set up the belayer to both be dragged up the slab at a good clip, and, be whacked by the plummeting climber? 

Can the belayer be set up out of the line of fire, or is it not worth the bother?

No, I am not a multipitch climber. Yet.

Jussst me being curious, yet again.

Best, OLH

Old lady H wrote:

So, Alexander's climber basically pitched off the ledge, if I'm getting this?

I took it as the leader was about 25' above the belay with the only pro being one of the belay bolts.

Then, our hapless climber is merrily skidding down the slab, violently yanking the belayer upward into the draw (hard, but not far)?

Slab falls are actually not that violent, assuming the falling leader manages to keep it together and slides instead of tumbling. My partner once took a 45'er on Patio Pinnacle on the GPA. After sliding on one side for about 20' he said it was getting hot so he rolled onto his other side for the rest of the fall.

With the belayer on a tether fifteen feet down, it is still a pretty significant fall factor, correct?

Yes, but the forces are mitigated by the falling leader pulling up the weight of the belayer. Also, fall factors really don't give the same idea as in a free fall. So while it may be a FF 1.8whatever, the actual impact force on the belay and anchor isn't anywhere near the same.

The question is, doesn't this set up the belayer to both be dragged up the slab at a good clip, and, be whacked by the plummeting climber? 

Depends. And whacked doesn't necessarily come into play. My belayer once stopped me on a 20'er  by putting out his arm as I was sliding (fortunately still on my hands and feet) by him (I would have gone about another 10' or so before the first bolt would have caught me).

Can the belayer be set up out of the line of fire, or is it not worth the bother?\

Depends.

Thanks, sir!

I'd just add that the belays on such slabs often some bolts in the middle of the blankness, in which case there will be no alternatives for situating the belayer.  That said, a belayer on a 15-20 foot tie-in might be able to swing out of the way of a falling leader, whereas a belayer tied in close rarely has enough room to maneuver.

Slab falls don't result in loads anywhere near air falls, so it is hard to know what any particular fall factor means in terms of impact load.  Still, reducing the fall factor will reduce the peak load to the anchor.

To get in position, the belayer can install a munter on a carabiner on the anchor, lower themselves to the desired spot, and tie off with a clove hitch on a carabiner on the belay loop.  When it comes time to climb, they keep hold of the clove-hitched strand from the anchor and belay/haul themselves back up to the anchor (they're walking on a slab).  The belayer at the top of the pitch can take in rope as the now-second climbs back to the belay and then take over all belaying as soon as the second unclips the munter.  

The one problem with this system is that it consumes three times the belayer's lowering distance in rope, and there has to be enough rope left for the leader to reach the next belay.  If this is going to be a problem, then the second can be lowered from the stance via a munter hitch managed by the soon-to-be leader, and this hitch tied off.  The second gets back to the belay anchor by hand-over-handing up the anchor strand, perhaps, if the steepness warrants it, with an added autoblock or progress capture device (a belay plate in guide mode or an assisted belay gadget, but these can be hard to install unless the belayer can unweight their anchor line) .

rgold wrote:

Some great tips. I suppose I have been fortunate that both the falls off the belay on slab routes I have "caught" have been on traversing routes where the leader was a good ways away from me (on the other one the climber managed to stop himself before the rope went tight on a fairly featured/lower angle slab). In terms of fall forces this was probably the most violent fall I ever caught. I caught a factor ~1 "air" fall the following day on the same rope and it was a much gentler catch. If I had an ATC I would like to think that I would have still caught my partner, but back to the OP I personally don't see how a grigri would ever be less likely to hold than ATC when getting sucked into a draw, especially with the potential for the belayer to get knocked around in this situation. I personally love Grigris for multipitch, and generally prefer to be belayed on one.

Alexander K wrote:

Some great tips. I suppose I have been fortunate that both the falls off the belay on slab routes I have "caught" have been on traversing routes where the leader was a good ways away from me (on the other one the climber managed to stop himself before the rope went tight on a fairly featured/lower angle slab). In terms of fall forces this was probably the most violent fall I ever caught. I caught a factor ~1 "air" fall the following day on the same rope and it was a much gentler catch. If I had an ATC I would like to think that I would have still caught my partner, but back to the OP I personally don't see how a grigri would ever be less likely to hold than ATC when getting sucked into a draw, especially with the potential for the belayer to get knocked around in this situation. I personally love Grigris for multipitch, and generally prefer to be belayed on one.

Alexander, with a big fall, rope can be pulled through the ATC, and the brake hand pulled right into it. 

When this happened to me, it was not a violent fall, but it was large enough for all of the above to happen. The ATC grabbed what was available, a tiny piece of my glove, and we were as one, until I decided to lower.

It happens so super fast, either that hand is good, and stays put, or...it isn't.

I have quite a lot of faith in my brake hand, but I also expect to go airborne, the rope to pull through, my hand to get pulled up, and, I wear gloves just in case (also as my preference).

I am now moving to an assisted braking device, for the big ticket falls. I know I'm good, most of the time, with the ATC. Being a lighter belayer? The odds for "most of the time" aren't good enough.

Best, OLH

Ben Dubs wrote:

I do NOT buy this defense. Do seat belts lull people into false security? T

The best research I know on this was done in England after seat belts for drivers became mandatory. There was an increase in accidents in which the front seat passenger was injured. The conclusion of various authorities was that the seat belt (consciously or unconsciously) gave the driver a sense of overconfidence which resulted in more accidents. l put something about this on rockclimbing.com years ago and don't have the reference material handy (where is Bear Breeder when we need  him?). In that post, there were references to other situations in which the purpose of improved safety equipment led to less attentive behavior and so defeated the purpose of the improved equipment. The gri-gri is a fine piece of equipment, but human nature will have its way.

rob.calm

A quick update:  The forces and energy dissipation involved became more obviously apparent when I attempted to remove my fifi hook attachment this weekend.  The tied nylon sling had fused with the nylon belay loop due to surface melting.  The belay loop and the sling had surface melting where heat generated during the fall melted the surfaces and fused them together.  I should really retire the harness, though realistically the strength loss would be minimal.

The bruises on my hips are still quite visible but mostly healed two weeks later.