First Lead Climb...past 60 years old

Old lady H wrote:

Good grief, Eli, I only wanted a quick hand hold, and may well have pulled/pushed that nut up myself (perhaps not set firmly enough?), as I knew it was only good for downward, at best. This was also on a route that isn't seeing gear, so dirt, lichen, pigeon poop etc are all possibilities. I wouldn't risk anything even close to this if it wasn't a clean fall with a bolt clipped under me. I am totally just beginning anything with gear, mainly looking to train my eyes right now. Yes, they should all be intended to be bomber, but I'd far rather have some falls on ripped gear, than think I'm doing great on it because I have never fallen.

Just yesterday, I backed off of a climb, and my partner and I left an entire new area, based on the nastiness of any falls on that rock including the possibly of slicing the rope.

And yes, I have an offer to learn top rope solo, which I plan on taking my friend up on.That is a good suggestion, and already on my to do list. I don't know if I will ever be a trad lead, or even if I want to be, but being able to at least do some reasonable placement of gear is my aim. Adding to my understanding, always. 

Best, Helen

So I'm a bit confused... I understand you placed a nut to use as a handhold, that's not the issue, and I've done so as well. But when your handhold nut ripped, did you fall on a gear placement that ripped or just straight onto the bolt. If it was the latter, my bad, I misunderstood.

And I think it's awesome you are practicing placing gear even if you aren't falling on it. It is definitely a skill that needs to be developed with experience, and also somewhat of an art. Aid climbing will certainly help you develop this skill and art form, but don't be deceived into thinking that the gear you placed while aiding is going to hold a fall.

eli poss wrote:

So I'm a bit confused... I understand you placed a nut to use as a handhold, that's not the issue, and I've done so as well. But when your handhold nut ripped, did you fall on a gear placement that ripped or just straight onto the bolt. If it was the latter, my bad, I misunderstood.

And I think it's awesome you are practicing placing gear even if you aren't falling on it. It is definitely a skill that needs to be developed with experience, and also somewhat of an art. Aid climbing will certainly help you develop this skill and art form, but don't be deceived into thinking that the gear you placed while aiding is going to hold a fall.

I was on my second attempt to lead, on a sport climb. Yes, a fall well above a bolt, not a trad fall per se. A whopping eight feet, maybe, maybe more. But, I didn't expect it at all, and the other lead was tons of "falls", but, super short, where I was right at a bolt and couldn't get anywhere. This fall was the first real fall on lead.

I will certainly place some gear now and then on the sport routes in the future, nuts most likely. As I am adept at falling, I expect I will have the opportunity to unexpectedly "test" some placements without being on a true trad lead. ;-)

OLH

I'm all for learning by trial and error, and even learning to lead outside, but I've gotta wonder-- if you're struggling up 5.7 and having to pull on gear at that grade, is it wise to attempt to learn to lead at that grade? Would a lower grade be a safer choice? 

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to pushing my limits at things that could kill me or break my body-- I was TR'ing routes at least 3 number grades above where I started leading on bolts and again leading sport 3 grades higher than those on which I started placing gear. I.E., I was super solid at the grade and the climbing itself was on auto-pilot. The idea being to decouple learning climbing technique from learning leading technique.

I'm not saying this tactic is for everyone, but it helped me get through my learning phase without any injuries-- and not until I began pushing my climbing limits on lead (with good technical skills in place) did I start falling, and when I did, I knew my placements were solid.

JFM wrote:

I'm all for learning by trial and error, and even learning to lead outside, but I've gotta wonder-- if you're struggling up 5.7 and having to pull on gear at that grade, is it wise to attempt to learn to lead at that grade? Would a lower grade be a safer choice? 

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to pushing my limits at things that could kill me or break my body-- I was TR'ing routes at least 3 number grades above where I started leading on bolts and again leading sport 3 grades higher than those on which I started placing gear. I.E., I was super solid at the grade and the climbing itself was on auto-pilot. The idea being to decouple learning climbing technique from learning leading technique.

I'm not saying this tactic is for everyone, but it helped me get through my learning phase without any injuries-- and not until I began pushing my climbing limits on lead (with good technical skills in place) did I start falling, and when I did, I knew my placements were solid.

The "lower grades" would pretty much be don't climb at all.

I'm not leading on gear, I'm choosing to lead, or attempt to lead, some sport routes selectively and, sometimes, perhaps, place gear. I am regularly "pushing my limits" simply by choosing to leave the parking lot and head up to the cliffs.

Your tactics are not untypical, and that is a fine approach, if one is a 5.10 climber, which I mostly am not, and may never be. 

Thanks for your comment, though, I know you meant well!

Best, OLH

Edit to add: I always liked your avatar! And, perhaps I am less conservative than some?

JFM wrote:

and not until I began pushing my climbing limits on lead (with good technical skills in place) did I start falling, and when I did, I knew my placements were solid.

How do you know you place good gear until you fall on it? Sure you can have somebody with experience check it and say that its good, but you never know for sure until you fall on it. Plus, people who lack the experience to evaluate their placements probably wouldn't be able to evaluate whether their "mentor" knows what he or she is talking about.

In my experience, I didn't really trust my gear until I fell on it and it held. Hell, I don't fully trust my gear now because I haven't fallen on it in a while. I mean, I know consciously whether it's good or not, and I know my gear will hold a fall if I deem it to be good but sub-consciously I still don't fully trust it. For me, it is the subconscious fears that hold me back most in climbing. I know in my head that I'll be fine if I fall on my gear, but my actions show that I don't have the same confidence above my gear as I do on good bolts.

Come on Eli youre just arguing semantics. We never know anything to be certain, but practice increases our odds of doing something right when it matters. Ive done a decent Amt of falling on gear and it's held so far, so I guess that says something (perhaps just lucky though)

Old lady H wrote:

The "lower grades" would pretty much be don't climb at all.

I was lucky to do some of my early climbing at the Gunks. Even though I was struggling to follow sixes and sevens, I had the opportunity to lead a few classic 5.2s and threes.

wendy weiss wrote:

I was lucky to do some of my early climbing at the Gunks. Even though I was struggling to follow sixes and sevens, I had the opportunity to lead a few classic 5.2s and threes.

Gunks is one place I'd enjoy, I think.

Our lowest grades are a very few 5.5, I think, but one of those is an almost unbelayable traversing route over a horrible boulder field. Bad fall, for sure. 

Usually, because I am out with much better climbers, I eyeball what they are leading. If the bottom part looks interesting, or at all a "maybe", I give it a go on top rope, no matter the grade. On top rope, I will also simply climb where ever I wish, within reason, on route or off, multiple routes....no route at all. I've certainly climbed where no chalked hands have gone anytime recently, if ever.

I have a climb like that from yesterday. Parts of three routes, to the top, although I had to hang a few times for rope management issues, or to reapproach a section (backcountry climbing).

;-) OLH

JFM wrote:

Come on Eli youre just arguing semantics. We never know anything to be certain, but practice increases our odds of doing something right when it matters. Ive done a decent Amt of falling on gear and it's held so far, so I guess that says something (perhaps just lucky though)

Sorry, my intention was not to argue semantics. I just wanted to point out that, in my experience, there was something subconsciously holding me back from fully trusting my gear until I actually fell on it. Perhaps I am unique in this regard, but I suspect others face this issue.

"Nash-e-mun" starts off "slabby", then is more vertical for the top half. I am hanging from the fifth bolt, one more to clip, then the anchors. You can see I'm still grinning.

This is shortly after the fall off of the one nut. You can see an earlier nut that got ripped when the rope went taut. I don't have much in the way of runners, yet, so the second nut didn't stand a chance with a fall from lots higher. As I do more of these, I will be treating them as real placements, and extend as needed.

JFM and Eli both, for myself, actually "falling" on this bit of gear (it was clipped, but I pulled it out, and fell, it wasn't pulled out by the fall), was great for me, as it was a totally unexpected sport lead fall, essentially my manufactured "hold" breaking, rather than me losing it and knowing i was coming off. For myself, as a brand new lead, this is what confirms to me that my mental game isdefinitely up to it!

I do know trad leaders, and, for the most part, yes, the aim is to not fall. I totally get that. Sport is a different animal, and understanding falls is important. I know gym climbers who don't want to fall, even on very tight top rope. This is not me.

What I have learned about myself is that, while I have great respect for the consequences of falls, I do not have any/much fear of the fall itself. Again, YMMV, but for me, it is a crucial difference.

Best, Helen

Jaren Watson wrote:

Knowing the routes you're working on, my opinion is you're taking an excellent approach. Don't listen to folks whose criticism won't actually help you.

I could not disagree more with Eli's earlier statement about your attitude.

I think it's completely appropriate to be excited about the fall AND the fact that the gear ripped. Because you were above the bolt, you assuredly learned something without any harmful consequences. Given the impossibility of getting on any local 5.4, 5.3, all gear routes, your approach strikes me as the best available and safe method for learning about gear placement.

Frankly, I find your excitement about ripping gear and learning and making the best of available routes pretty badass and inspiring.

Keep up the great work!

Thanks!

In fairness, that was mostly/partly a misreading on Eli's part. He thought I was on a trad lead.

Best, H.

Old lady H wrote:

Gunks is one place I'd enjoy, I think.

The Gunks is one of the relatively few areas that has lots of high quality, worthwhile trad routes  in the easy grades.

How do you feel about overhangs, ceilings and roofs? Here's a popular 5.2 (originally rated 5.0):

Easy O

And exposure:

CCK 5.7+

Photos from MP routes database.

Marc801 C wrote:

The Gunks is one of the relatively few areas that has lots of high quality, worthwhile trad routes  in the easy grades.

How do you feel about overhangs, ceilings and roofs? Here's a popular 5.2 (originally rated 5.0):

Easy O

And exposure:

CCK 5.7+

Photos from MP routes database.

Lol! Marc, my belayer brain overrides the climber and starts in on pendulum falls, and where can I go to mitigate that, can I jump (no, not off a cliff), how fast can I feed slack and still catch the fall...sigh.

Climber says, heck yeah! Although the bulges here are usually where I get stuck, when others just reach over.

Maybe some year. :-(

OLH

For those of you who haven't guessed yet, I'm pretty certain there's a young trad back country FA stuck in the old lady body. Punishment for some dudes bad karma back when, frustrating for the current owner of old body with young temperament.

Best, H.

climbing friend,

you do not want the fear. you have the fear. you try to fall on the gear and are quite impress with yourownself for a few moment passing. but then the fear is still there. be bold on your heart and on your flash, and continue upward.

"Adventure is not for every man. And that's the charm of it."

- Herman Buhl

- John Long

- Aleks Zebastian

I'm 60 and getting ready to ropevsolo both TR and sport so  u go girl. Represent!

I'm a guy but who cares. The more we move the younger we get..... or something like that

Best

John

You are more active than I am.  I just climb, hike a little, and hop on my mountain bike when I am have time.  Nothing crazy, just active.

Woo hoo! Inspiring!!! :-)