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Two Recent Glue In failures; are there others?

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

It sort of looks like that Sika stuff is not the best product to begin with. If buying at the Home Depot, you mind as well get Simpson SET22, which is in the same isle but a better product. They also sell Redhead A7 which is a good quick-set epoxyacrylate (I think?) product. I seem to recall that was the original epoxy recommended for use with the Wave Bolt.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

One does get the impression you need to be quite fastidious and thorough about glue-ins or easily end up with a shit product. Little scary thinking about the possibility of just any jimbob with a drill thinking 'how hard can it be?'

Andrew Krajnik · · Plainfield, IL · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 1,739
Healyje wrote:

One does get the impression you need to be quite fastidious and thorough about glue-ins or easily end up with a shit product. Little scary thinking about the possibility of just any jimbob with a drill thinking 'how hard can it be?'

Isn't this the case with any bolted anchor, though? Ultimately, you're trusting that someone else installed it correctly.

newrivermike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 0

We've had 2 glue-in "failures" at the NRG. Both were identified as loose and fixed or removed before anyone fell on them. One, on Quinsana was identified within a few days. The other was there for 5+ years before it was identified and removed. Both these bolts were placed during the same time period by the same experienced person. They were placed properly in good rock. We believe the glue was the problem. The bolter used glass capsules. I believe they were made by Hilti...? I can't find a link to them anymore but they were a glass capsule that you'd push into the hole, then hammer the bolt in over it. The glass would break and you'd spin the bolt to mix the glue. We haven't used these since that one batch we had way back then, but if anyone has used this product, it's worth knowing about. 

Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

I don't have any experience with glue ins installed  for climbing but have drilled hundreds under an inspectors eye for construction. Knowing the properties of sandstone, I'm always skeptical of glue ins drilled in that type of rock especially. I know they last awhile but with erosion and seepage, I can see how partials of sandstone would breakaway from themselves, leaving the hardened epoxy with the possibility of pulling out of the hole. They should be checked often and used cautiously, like any equipment used for protecting ones life. 

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Andrew Krajnik wrote:

Isn't this the case with any bolted anchor, though? Ultimately, you're trusting that someone else installed it correctly.

Not really, your average jimbob can do an adequate job of an expansion bolt which is harder to fuckup compared to how glue-ins sound.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Joe Garibay wrote:

I don't have any experience with glue ins installed  for climbing but have drilled hundreds under an inspectors eye for construction. Knowing the properties of sandstone, I'm always skeptical of glue ins drilled in that type of rock especially. I know they last awhile but with erosion and seepage, I can see how partials of sandstone would breakaway from themselves, leaving the hardened epoxy with the possibility of pulling out of the hole. They should be checked often and used cautiously, like any equipment used for protecting ones life. 

Actually, on soft sandstone glue ins are preferable over expansion bolts because the expansion bolts accelerate the rate at which the sandstone is weathered by pulverizing the sandstone during expansion. 

However, on sandstone that soft, anything is suspect and you should treat it as the choss that it is and not fall. 

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Healyje wrote:

Not really, your average jimbob can do an adequate job of an expansion bolt

Depends on what you consider adequate job. Any noobsause can drill a hole, pound a bolt in and tighten it, but that's no more bolting than blindly shoving cams in some random crack is trad climbing. There's more to bolting than just drilling holes. I've seen 5.13 climbers do a crap job of bolting a route where they placed multiple unsafe bolts on one pitch. First bolt in a flake, third bolt in a block, sixth bolt an inch away from a crack... There was an incident awhile back where someone was injured or killed (forgot which), and the person who claimed to have bolted the route admitted that he's placed many bolts and his method of tightening the bolts was loosely something to the extent of "cranking on them as hard as possible until they dont turn anymore." There are plenty of people who place mechanical bolts who have plenty of room for improvement, to say the least.

I agree that there is more to mess up with a glue-in bolt though.

Past User · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,069

Sprout bolt pulled straight out of a cobble- Probably improperly brushed hole or improperly mixed glue...there was reportedly visibly dried glue on the neck of the bolt near the clipping eye. It's unlikely the glue was pumped out the bottom of the hole because it was in a hard/ competent quartzite cobble- not placed into the soft and vuggy matrix. My feeling is the glue in bolt style that was used (and failed)  lacks surface area along the bolt shaft to encourage glue adhesion- the wave bolts solve this issue. Be sure to clean bolt holes perfectly and use non-expired glue that you are certain is mixing as designed. 

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Healyje wrote:

Not really, your average jimbob can do an adequate job of an expansion bolt which is harder to fuckup compared to how glue-ins sound.

Sh*t!! I'm agreeing with Healy, how did that happen?

Totally agree that a wedge/expansion bolt is harder to f up than a glue in, particularly for someone who isn't good at paying attention to detail (i.e. a non-negligible percentage of the number of people bolting).

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
bheller wrote:

My feeling is the glue in bolt style that was used (and failed)  lacks surface area along the bolt shaft to encourage glue adhesion- the wave bolts solve this issue.

What bolt was used?

Mike Bond · · Kentucky · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 3,191
20 kN wrote:

What bolt was used?

And what glue?

Past User · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,069

Fixe SS 3/8" x 3" shaft...not sure of the glue...could have been powers...

Francis Haden · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 9
20 kN wrote:

Cool. I asked him if there was any uncured epoxy and he dident recall seeing any which is why I was presuming hole cleaning was the problem.

This is another reason why I like the cartridge system--no need to worry about bags getting unevenly dispersed. I dont get why Hilti doesent switch to it, especially considering their RE-500V3 stuff is quadruple the price of other fine epoxy systems. Anyway, if you leave the mixing tip on when you're done with partly used containers, it helps keep the epoxy inside from getting old/ dry/ ect. That's the recommended way to do it by Simpson and as a result they say partly used containers are good for one year if you keep the tip on. You are right that the tip can get hardener and resin mixed together which clogs the tips. This seems to happen when you unscrew the tip, which is another reason to just leave the old tip on. However, if it happens I find using two different wood screws (to avoid cross-contamination) or similar picks to clean the openings well works good. Just be sure to remove all the hardened stuff or it can get stuck in the nozzle and create mixing problems.

Rigid cartridge systems definitely have an advantage over collapsible foil packs (e.g. Hilti RE500_V3) in that it prevents burst bags and component leakage and foil packs are certainly delicate by comparison with either component tube vulnerable to detaching from the rigid plastic head or being punctured.

Hilti already use a plastic (reusable) holder into which their collapsible foil packs are loaded, with both 'bags' supported in their own separate tubes. The only way uneven dispensing can occur is if the bag is split along the seal such that when the plungers move forwards, component material leaks inside the foil pack holder and is not forced into the mixing head. Alternatively the entire collapsible 'bag' detaches from the rigid mixing head (upon which a mixing nozzle is attached) and whilst not ruptured, the previously described issue can occur whereby component leaks unseen inside the foil pack holder.

Inspecting the foil pack prior to loading into the holder eliminates that as an issue, whilst observing colour consistency during injection also provides a safeguard. Ultimately keeping the semi mixed product from the initial trigger pulls and mixer nozzle itself provides a start and finish set of samples with which to confirm the epoxy is (has) reacted.

It is also why I tend to transport foil packs 'pre-loaded' inside the holder rather than take the bagged foil pack to the crag and then unpack.

I also unscrew the mixer nozzle once finished and wipe the attachment head with the rag from bolting. Cured epoxy has a habit of doing a great job of bonding the nozzle on permanently!

Darren S · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 3,388

Since the OP was looking for other examples, a buddy of mine pulled one out of "Sunny and Steep" at its eponymous crag.  He happened to have a 1/2" 5 piece with him, which now lives in the hole formerly occupied by the glue in.

I for one think the climbing community needs to reevalute the hard-on it has for glue ins.  I am not convinced of their superiority.

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Darren in Vegas wrote:

Since the OP was looking for other examples, a buddy of mine pulled one out of "Sunny and Steep" at its eponymous crag.  He happened to have a 1/2" 5 piece with him, which now lives in the hole formerly occupied by the glue in.

I for one think the climbing community needs to reevalute the hard-on it has for glue ins.  I am not convinced of their superiority.

I completely agree. A glue-in installed by a competent and careful individual is great and in many instances the ideal bolt situation. However, in the hands of many bolters, the potential for catastrophic bolt failure due to inept execution seems real and very concerning. When I first started climbing I assumed (naively) that bolt installers knew what they were doing. After having the opportunity to meet many route equippers over my almost two decades of climbing I have come to realization that many equippers are a few beers short of a sixer. My conclusion is that one of the only things stopping more time bombs is the fact that most mechanical bolts (sleeves/wedge/etc) have enough tolerance to idiocy built into their design that bolt failure is rare. If you read posts like Mr. Haden's and 20Kn's above for example, it becomes quite clear that installing glue-ins has way, waaay more opportunity for failure due to lack of knowledge or idiocy involved. It should certainly be of concern to the community in my opinion. 

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

i don't have a large amount of experience with glue-ins in a climbing setting, but i do have a fair amount of experience with them in an industrial setting.  i have a fair amount of experience with mechanical anchors in both settings.  i have to say - i really cringe at how it seems like there is a movement in climbing towards using glue-ins as the new standard.  don't get me wrong - they are great for certain applications if they are installed by someone who really knows what they are doing and is really paying attention.  however, they are just so much more dependent on a perfect installation.  in industry, they are rigorously tested after installation - but you really don't see this being applied to climbing installations and i think it is a big omission.

a lot of the projects that i work on have basically banned adhesive anchors due to pull out problems and the amount of oversight needed to fully guarantee that an installation is good. 

Rob WardenSpaceLizard · · las Vegans, the cosmic void · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 130

How recent was this sunny and steep failure? Those eye bolts are like 5/8s. I can go out a wave bolt there later. 

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Darren in Vegas wrote:

I for one think the climbing community needs to reevalute the hard-on it has for glue ins.  I am not convinced of their superiority.

Glue-ins are far superior in most respects, that they need slightly more intelligence to install correctly is another matter. My baseline for evaluating the suitability of products for climbers is that they are intelligent enough to drive a car and that they can tie a knot in a rope, if they can manage this then gluing a bolt in should present no problems.

The foil-pack issue is another matter, all the failed glue-ins I´ve heard of used them and for this reason I recommend strongly against their use. Slow setting epoxies are another problem, with a polyester or vinylester resin you can  check the resin is hard immediately and in the standard co-axial or piggy-back dispenser system it is virtually impossible to achieve an incorrect mix. They also go harder with age even if the mixing ratio was somehow incorrect, something epoxy does not.

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Jim Titt wrote:

Glue-ins are far superior in most respects, that they need slightly more intelligence to install correctly is another matter. My baseline for evaluating the suitability of products for climbers is that they are intelligent enough to drive a car and that they can tie a knot in a rope, if they can manage this then gluing a bolt in should present no problems.

The foil-pack issue is another matter, all the failed glue-ins I´ve heard of used them and for this reason I recommend strongly against their use. Slow setting epoxies are another problem, with a polyester or vinylester resin you can  check the resin is hard immediately and in the standard co-axial or piggy-back dispenser system it is virtually impossible to achieve an incorrect mix. They also go harder with age even if the mixing ratio was somehow incorrect, something epoxy does not.

Unfortunately, I'm not so convinced that your test is stringent enough, and Slim's comment above would seem to corroborate this sentiment. And worse yet, I'm not so sure that some equippers pass your test anyway (*grin*).

But, let's assume that you are correct and there is a chimp-proof glue-in setup. What exact glue-in method/setup in your opinion equates to the almost chimp-like simplicity of installing a wedge anchor in good granite? Does that really exist? 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Fixed Hardware: Bolts & Anchors
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