Gunks AAC campground

You understand the math just fine and know very well that I was comparing what it costs for one person to stay at these places.   But you are right; the Gunks fee is a site fee that can be split by as many as four people, whereas the Climber's Ranch fee is for a single person.  In any case the cost wasn't really my point as it is easily in line with comparable costs in this very expensive part of the country.

I've stayed in a  bunch of hotels with a 24 hour cancellation policy, but the policies tend to be longer for lodges in national parks, and it can be very hard to discern what the policy actually is in some cases, as it can vary considerably for hotels in the same chain.  Cancellation fees and total forfeitures generate quite a bit of income for hotels, and I get that the AAC wants to help finance the operation in that way.  And indeed, for AAC accommodations in place like the Tetons, where I would guess the expected stay is more than two days, I have less issue with a longer cancellation window.  But the Gunks campground is going to  be primarily used by people coming for a weekend, which can easily be washed out. In this case I don't think the AAC has or ought to act like a big hotel chain with national park properties but rather should, as a climbers' organization, pay some attention to climbers' situations.  As I said, I wouldn't have a problem with short-notice cancellations being tied to weather forecasts.

Of course, I know nothing of the financial issues associated with the Gunks campground.  It may be that the AAC needs those cancellation fees to break even or not lose too much.  But they are certainly a burden to climbers who want to visit and one I think the club should try to mitigate.

The problem I have with the AAC Gunks cancellation policy is it provides zero window for recouping your deposit should weather wash out your plans (as a climber).  Like Rich posted, I see it as nothing more than a cash grab.  They *could* have done a 50% refund up to the 24 or even 48 hour mark, and zero after.  But they chose the evil, businessman approach and strategically set out to maximize profits.  So they're nothing more than a business, and the fact they're supposedly a 'climber' organization is a very distant secondary purpose.

In the past I stayed at MUA.  Being less than 90 minutes away I now car pool each day I climb on the weekends, or just go somewhere else to climb [the Gunks are tremendously overcrowded most of the time now anyway].  I won't even have enough Gunks trips this year to justify a membership.  I may, for the first time in a long time, not even renew this Fall.

Until enough climbers stop coming the financial policies at the preserve and connected services will only get worse.

The cancellation policy encourages people to book sites way in advance for fear of it filling up (scarce resource), and then they no-show because plans change within 7 days and there's no incentive to cancel and open up the spot for someone else. Every time I stay there I see a ton of unused campsites, and no doubt there were also a ton of people that stayed home because they didn't have a place to stay. Missed opportunity. Maybe a secondary marketplace for spots could help, but agree with Kevin that rethinking the cancellation policy should be a priority.

Seriously, look at the June calendar. Already 100% booked for a weekend a month out when no one has a clue what the weather will be. And book your October trip soon... e-squatters have already claimed 40% of the sites from the 2nd to 5th. AAC should revisit Econ 101; the incentives here are all screwed up.

Rob D. wrote:

Yes because $50 a weekend might not be a lot to some people, but it is to me.  I'm a teacher with enough side-hustle-work to have an okay place in brooklyn with my wife, but the extra camping money has made full weekend trips something that happens less and less. I know... compared to skiing, scuba diving, big-game hunting, skydiving with a snowboard attached to your feet, or freestyle snowmobile jumping, $25 a night for a campground is cheap.  But it's still $25 more than it was and I consider it a less pleasant experience to boot.  Beggars can't be choosers but enough people have shared this same opinion, quite openly on this website, that I think saying, "I'm disappointed" is a totally fair and valid point.   

So there's the heart of the matter - you're more upset because it was once free and now it's in line with what other northeast campgrounds charge. Do you have 3 friends? If you share a site with them, that cuts it to $6/person/night.

Marc801 C wrote:

So there's the heart of the matter - you're more upset because it was once free and now it's in line with what other northeast campgrounds charge. Do you have 3 friends? If you share a site with them, that cuts it to $6/person/night.

It's twofold.  I can no longer spend my summer there with minimal cost, and honestly the cost is prohibitive for me and for many others.  I know it's easy to say, "you have a job, why can't you afford an extra $35 a week on camping?" well, I can't.  And that's what's disappointing.  Climbing at the gunks was an affordable thing for me for a long time and it is becoming less and less.  What's more, most weekends it's impossible to get a site without signing up weeks ahead of time, and as this thread has pointed out, the cancellation policy is abysmal. I also don't really see the current situation being $35 better than what we have just 18 months ago.  

Rob D. wrote:

It's twofold.  I can no longer spend my summer there with minimal cost, and honestly the cost is prohibitive for me and for many others.  I know it's easy to say, "you have a job, why can't you afford an extra $35 a week on camping?" well, I can't.  And that's what's disappointing.  Climbing at the gunks was an affordable thing for me for a long time and it is becoming less and less.  What's more, most weekends it's impossible to get a site without signing up weeks ahead of time, and as this thread has pointed out, the cancellation policy is abysmal. I also don't really see the current situation being $35 better than what we have just 18 months ago.  

While I support the idea of the AAC CG, I agree that the implementation is less than ideal. And I actully don't disagree with you regarding costs. That there is no reasonably priced camping for poor college students and climbing bums on extended road trips is incredibly unfortunate. I am now too far removed from the area to know if there are viable future options. 

Wouldn't it be cool if Minnewaska State Park had a CG that charged typical state park rates?

Marc801 C wrote:

Seriously? You live in Brooklyn, travel to the Gunks, have more than one piece on your rack that costs over $50, and you're old enough to be out of school for a number of years and you're trying to play the affordability card?

Rob gets gear through prodeals and still has like 10-20 year old shit on his rack. He carpools every time he goes to the Gunks, and wears busted old pants and climbing shoes. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about

I camped there the other night.  Weeknight, walk in.  It is a nice facility.  I agree though, it's not big enough to handle the demand.   All the talk around the Gunks is how "the old days are gone" -- and I have to admit that seems to be true.   40 sites is not enough.  Hopefully another one will open.

I will admit the brief period of time where me and MUA overlapped life was good, but now its hard to get out there. I feel like I am too far away to do a day trip, yet too close to bother planning my visits months in advance.

Suz Zak wrote:

I probably shouldn't participate in this conversation, be easy on me, but as someone relocating to the East Coast for school in a couple months, this subject is stressin me out. Hoping to have the Gunks be my main climbing spot.

First of all, its great climbing, so savor that

 There's no way I'm booking campground weekends in advanced on a grad school schedule, and I'm not even going to bring up the cost issue. What if you have a truck you sleep in? Are people cool with sharing, asking nice and throwing a couple beers to park your truck at their site? (Hidden Valley in Joshua Tree fashion) 

The campsites usually only have 1 car spot with overflow parking (extra fee), so people might let you set up an extra tent and split the cost, but parking is kind of tight if I remember (Maybe there are  sites with 2 parking spots allocated?)

How far away do you need to drive to just park and sleep in your truck? What's the equivalent of BLM land out east? Lookin for a nice dirt road. PM me cuz I know y'all are real secretive out there.

Sadly the MUA camp ground was sort of on "BLM" style land, managed by New York State though (DEC) and that was shut down. There are other  possible areas (see my above post for some links). People used to sleep in the west trapps and visitor center lot (rather common knowledge but they started cracking down on that, it's a gamble. Last I checked it was a silly citation and  a little bit of hassle, but I don't think you would want to do it frequently. There is also a park and ride I have heard of people using (keep it low key though), and other than that the land out here is very private, so it is kind of hard to find a good place to lay down and rest; but I am sure you can find some place (if you find/hear of a good place to park a car for the night PM me).

Creekview is a real options, they have been flakey with me, but there are usually spots open and its a place you can pay a guy some money and pitch a tent (I don't remember it being very expensive)

Jon Frisby wrote:

Rob gets gear through prodeals and still has like 10-20 year old shit on his rack. He carpools every time he goes to the Gunks, and wears busted old pants and climbing shoes. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about

Nor do you. You've also just described someone I know - prodeals, old gear, carpooling, old clothing, etc; he's an investment banker making close to 7 figures, owns a Tesla, a Sprinter,  a very built out Jeep, and his home is over 6K sq ft. "Affordability" is a value judgement, and how a person chooses live is not necessarily an indication of their wealth, lack thereof, or if they can afford something. I am suggesting that sure, going from free to pay is at minimum an annoyance, but the fee is fully in alignment with both other local CGs (one of which charges ~$55/night) and northeastern CGs in general. Will the lack of free or low-cost camping be a problem for some climbers? Without a doubt. Should it keep them from climbing at the Gunks? No, since there are a whole variety of ways to deal with the affordability issue. 

hEy Jon and Rob don't you knw your never supposed to question anything abut the gunks and gunks policies on MP or the dogs get set loose on you!!! Its all perfect down there and nobody should qustion anything ever!!! Expensive camping is fine expensive dayuse fees are fine and if you cant pay them you must be lazy or stupid!!!! too bad theres not someplace only a couple ours away with FREE camping and no crownds where people coulg go instead

There's free primitive camping allowed in Witch's Hole State Forest, ~17 minutes from the W. Trapps lot. As a rule of thumb I always look for nearby state forests before considering paying for a campsite, nearly all state forests in the Northeast allow free primitive camping, provided you follow their rules on being far enough from a trail. You can camp for free at the Gunks, Seneca, Rumney, etc., you just have to think like a backpacker or get good at hammock camping.

Someone should start buying them up during popular times and figuring out how to scalp them to folks driving up from NYC for the big bux the AAC is leaving on the table.

Jake Cramer 1 wrote:

There's free primitive camping allowed in Witch's Hole State Forest, ~17 minutes from the W. Trapps lot. As a rule of thumb I always look for nearby state forests before considering paying for a campsite, nearly all state forests in the Northeast allow free primitive camping, provided you follow their rules on being far enough from a trail. You can camp for free at the Gunks, Seneca, Rumney, etc., you just have to think like a backpacker or get good at hammock camping.

How is the camping at witch's hole? Just camped and shawangunk state forest and it was nice but a little far.

Morgan Patterson wrote:

Someone should start buying them up during popular times and figuring out how to scalp them to folks driving up from NYC for the big bux the AAC is leaving on the table.

yes , this. who wants to manage a FB group?

T Roper wrote:

yes , this. who wants to manage a FB group?

Maybe with a rolling auction system... highest bidder gets the goods!