Releasing from Loaded Guide Mode: Reliable Techniques?

Guy Keesee wrote:

Knock on wood, the only time I've been dropped was when we were practicing this (ATC guide top belay). Very short fall, expected, no big deal....but I do not EVER want to be dropped again. I don't know why, but it felt far worse than any fall ever did, and I fall a lot!

Pretty huge motivator to get up the effing things any way possible, and never, ever ask to be lowered. I did manage my only trad follow (with top belay) shortly after, with the "no way to go but up or die" motivation. There's that, I guess! 

Best, H.

Concerning the DMM Pivot...maybe Ted came the closest to answering what interests me, but I'd be interested in more discussion on this. I have done some very short lowers with the Pivot and it seems quite easy to control. Like VERY easy to control--not at all ON/OFF like other devices. I should do some more extensive experimenting (in the gym and low down on the wall), but it sure seems to me a back up is not necessary. It's simply that smooth (using my 9.8 and 10.2 ropes). Obviously, you want to take care, go slow, and keep a firm hold on the brake line, but I know there are those (including one or two of my current climbing partners) who have said, "I would back it up anyway", but isn't that the purpose of the Pivot--to dispense with all the crazy shenanigans related to backing up the lowering operation? Are there any more users of the DMM Pivot out there who have done extensive lowering out at the crag--can you comment? I found I dislike being belayed in guide mode on something that is hard for me...for example...ME, hanging over the roof: "Hey, can you lower me about two feet back to that stance just before the crux." MY BUDDY: "Uh, no, I can't. I would need to set up a back up...too much of a pain in the ass. Just try it again from there." (As an aside, I hate belaying a second in guide mode with the Pivot on any rope bigger than 9.8--way too strenuous. Or is it just me?)

ViperScale wrote:

This is the reason I use a gri-gri .... I don't really use it for any other type of belay outside top belaying so I guess the minimalist would be completely against using one but to each their own.

Much of the above kind of choice is climb-venue dependent. 

For me, long multi-pitch routes are my main  interest where shaving weight here and there can mean, say, bringing an extra liter of water.  And the only times that I've used guide mode is in a party of three with two concurrently climbing partners (where a gri-gri is not practical). For other situations, I prefer to always belay off the harness with a tube-style device.  Oh, and we all seldom hang dog.

More generally, I've updated the OP with the various suggestions thus far.

Daniel Joder wrote:

Concerning the DMM Pivot ... I'd be interested in more discussion on this. I have done some very short lowers ....

I would also be interested in personal experiences with the DMM Pivot. Sounds like short lowers might be ok.  Anyone with experience doing a longer lower with a DMM Pivot (e.g., half a pitch)?

Andy Hansen wrote:

Here's something slightly different:

Put a catastrophe knot in the brake strand. An overhand works fine. 

Put a friction hitch on the load strand and clip a locking, HMS carabiner to it. 

Using the backside strand of your clove hitch (assuming you've secured yourself to the master point with a clove hitch) put a Munter-Mule-Overhand on the locking carabiner attached to the friction hitch on the load strand. 

Manually load the friction hitch and MMO combo on the load strand. 

Redirect the load strand using a locking or non-locking carabiner from the masterpoint. 

Friction hitch the original brake strand from the plaquette device. Release the friction hitch and MMO combo slowly until climber's weight is on the original plaquette device. 

Remove catastrophe knot and lower. 

Interested in this for reliably being able to do it in an emergency (my anticipated need to lower under load).  But kinda complex (like some other techniques) and so could be slow when urgency is important (again, in my most likely scenario).

I can get behind short lowers, to a secure stance or mid-pitch without using a back-up but for a long (think 100m lower) or mid-route (1000' off the deck) I'd be stoked if whoever is lowering me is using some sort of controlled back-up. Also, the shenanigans with the dyneema runner through the aux port of the ATC guide seem to be a bit sketchy, in my opinion. Namely the fact that it requires counterweight to engage... something I'd rather not have to deal with. The method I drew out earlier works very, very well in my opinion. Give it a shot and have it in your back pocket for that time when you're NOT using a Gri-Gri or DMM Pivot. 

So, it seems most folks are adamantly against the guide-plate device and favor the Gri-Gri (or some other sort of easy-to-use in a lowering scenario device)? It seems as though a lot of folks are also not climbing in a group of three and have explosive bowel movements... 

Psyched to hear more about the DMM Pivot and other devices and how to reliably lower a climber who's weighting the rope (think as though a climber fell out from under a roof and is hanging in space...)!

Andy Hansen wrote:

Also, the shenanigans with the dyneema runner through the aux port of the ATC guide seem to be a bit sketchy, in my opinion. Namely the fact that it requires counterweight to engage... something I'd rather not have to deal with. The method I drew out earlier works very, very well in my opinion. Give it a shot and have it in your back pocket for that time when you're NOT using a Gri-Gri or DMM Pivot.

[...]

Psyched to hear more about the DMM Pivot and other devices and how to reliably lower a climber who's weighting the rope (think as though a climber fell out from under a roof and is hanging in space...)!

As I understand it, the method you (and kablauch) laid out is a load strand re-direct. But since the scenario posted by the OP is "a following partner(s) who hangs on the rope and then needs to be lowered before unweighting the rope", how do you re-direct the load strand with the weight of a climber without some sort of mechanical advantage (which is something you didn't want to deal with)?

Edited to add: never mind, I got the answer below.

Bill Lawry wrote:

G) get better partners or have them unweight the rope so you'll never need to lower while loaded:  efficient; does not account for incapacitated  follower; maybe said in jest? (aikibujin, kablauch Blauch).

For the record, that was said in jest. If I need to lower my second in guide mode, I use method E (basically defeating the auto-block device completely and lower with a munter hitch), which I learned because I had a Trango B-52 belay device and that's the method you'd use with it (B-52 does not have a hole to thread slings). With this method, I don't need to have a skinny sling or pre-thread the little hole with cord, I can use a big fat 18mm sling (or even the rope on my end), and I can easily set up mechanical advantage if I need to.

And I think one of us is not understanding Andy Hansen correctly. I thought he was talking about a load-strand re direct, which is the same method laid out by kablauch and now N Nelsen below. I think that is different from the D.1 method you laid out, because you don't flip the device at all, you leave the device in the same configuration, but change the direction of the load strand of the rope by re-directing it through the master point. This has the benefit of better control of the lowering without needing a backup (it may still be a good idea to use one). I've been using similar principle to rappel with my auto-block devices for years (I've been calling it "carabiner brake mode"), there is enough friction in the system to get a smooth rappel/lower of one person.

I've become a fan of using the "Chauvin Lower" as of recent. Easy to do in a weighted situation, silly easy in the event your climber can momentarily unweight the rope. 

Attach a friction hitch backup on the brake strand and clip to the belayer's harness with a locker. Use a cordelette with a Klemheist on the load strand and a Munter Mule Overhand (MMO) to the shelf (or Prusik to the load strand and an MMO on a locker clipped to the prusik using the backside of the belayer's clove hitch if you anchored in with the rope) to take the load off of the plaquette.  Ratchet the load off of the plaquette by pushing/pulling the locker that holds the rope in the plaquette back and forth, and clip a locker to the load strand then clip that same locker to the masterpoint above the plaquette. Test the third hand backup, then release the MMO and transfer the load back onto the plaquette, then lower while tending the backup.

(Photo by Joe Stock @ stockalpine.com)

N Nelsen wrote:

Ratchet the load off of the plaquette by pushing/pulling the locker that holds the rope in the plaquette back and forth, and clip a locker to the load strand then clip that same locker to the masterpoint above the plaquette.

Thanks, this actually answered my question to Andy above.

If you could read the minds of the people in the background:

What the eff did he just say?

That took forever.

I''m bored.

I'm freezing.

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.

.

.

.

These techniques are way overkill.  More suited for a rescue belay escape with victim left on a releasable belay.  

Ted Pinson wrote:

I've lowered people down a complete pitch without a backup on a 9.4mm rope...it was fine.  The brake releases much like a Grigri lever, so you can control the rate in much the same way.  It does take some getting used to, but I wouldn't say a munter or autoblock is necessary in the same way it is for an ATC Guide.

Yeah--I think with practice I'll be able to feel comfortable lowering in guide mode with the DMM Pivot at some point. I'm giving the advice to use a backup because it sounded like the person asking the question hadn't used the device before, and I think it's wise to use a backup until you're comfortable with the device. It's not a foolproof system.

I think even when I'm comfortable lowering without a backup, I'll still throw a Prusik backup on anyway. There's no downside except the time it takes, and my Prusik-tying is practiced enough at this point that it's only 30 seconds.

Daniel Joder wrote:

Concerning the DMM Pivot...maybe Ted came the closest to answering what interests me, but I'd be interested in more discussion on this. I have done some very short lowers with the Pivot and it seems quite easy to control. Like VERY easy to control--not at all ON/OFF like other devices. I should do some more extensive experimenting (in the gym and low down on the wall), but it sure seems to me a back up is not necessary. It's simply that smooth (using my 9.8 and 10.2 ropes). Obviously, you want to take care, go slow, and keep a firm hold on the brake line, but I know there are those (including one or two of my current climbing partners) who have said, "I would back it up anyway", but isn't that the purpose of the Pivot--to dispense with all the crazy shenanigans related to backing up the lowering operation? Are there any more users of the DMM Pivot out there who have done extensive lowering out at the crag--can you comment? I found I dislike being belayed in guide mode on something that is hard for me...for example...ME, hanging over the roof: "Hey, can you lower me about two feet back to that stance just before the crux." MY BUDDY: "Uh, no, I can't. I would need to set up a back up...too much of a pain in the ass. Just try it again from there." (As an aside, I hate belaying a second in guide mode with the Pivot on any rope bigger than 9.8--way too strenuous. Or is it just me?)

Your experience might be affected by the thickness of your ropes. With 9.4 ropes I did find that the range of motion where the climber was descending at a comfortable speed was narrow enough to require a little practice. Definitely better than with the ATC guide, but not 100% smooth.

Bill Lawry wrote:

I would also be interested in personal experiences with the DMM Pivot. Sounds like short lowers might be ok.  Anyone with experience doing a longer lower with a DMM Pivot (e.g., half a pitch)?

I have done two full-pitch (80') lowers with the DMM Pivot off single-pitch routes about a month ago. Typically I belay the follower off the harness with a redirect through the master point, but in these cases I was in a narrow spot where the guide mode allowed me to stack the rope more easily.

The first time was a little jerky because I was lowering too fast and my Prusik backup kept catching. The second time it only caught twice as I was starting the lower. I think with a few more practices I could get a smooth lower. One thing to note was that the lowers were on pretty slabby terrain (~75 degrees?) so the climber's full weight wasn't on the system.

Whether lowering off guide mode was the best choice for these situations is questionable--admittedly getting practice with guide mode lowering was my main motivation for using it.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Your experience might be affected by the thickness of your ropes. With 9.4 ropes I did find that the range of motion where the climber was descending at a comfortable speed was narrow enough to require a little practice. Definitely better than with the ATC guide, but not 100% smooth.

Yeah, rope size, carabiner type, possible rope treatments...

Better have a backup the first time you are trying any combination you haven't already determined to be effective and free of sudden releases.

No way in hell I'd let someone lower me with a guide plate and no backup, no matter how experienced they claim to be and no matter what the brand of plate was involved.  In fact, given the possibilities for sudden loss of control, guide plate lowering  should be an emergency-only procedure to be used only when the plate cannot be unweighted.

Greg D wrote:

If you could read the minds of the people in the background:

What the eff did he just say?

That took forever.

I''m bored.

I'm freezing.

.

.

.

.

.

These techniques are way overkill.  More suited for a rescue belay escape with victim left on a releasable belay.  

Cool. We gather that you're not a fan of the seemingly convoluted process of releasing a weighted plaquette device. But, they are a valuable tool to possess and if you're not psyched to learn the techniques, or are more psyched to have the ability to bypass said techniques, then so be it. But please, just stop visiting this thread if you're going to repeat the same snarky bullshit. We get it. 

I don't think any of the manufacturers suggest a backup in their usage cartoons.

That doesn't mean that a backup isn't mandatory...

rgold wrote:

Well then, that's news to me. You'd think they'd give proper instructions in their user manuals. Thank you for the heads up rgold.

Daniel Joder wrote:

Concerning the DMM Pivot...maybe Ted came the closest to answering what interests me, but I'd be interested in more discussion on this. I have done some very short lowers with the Pivot and it seems quite easy to control. Like VERY easy to control--not at all ON/OFF like other devices. I should do some more extensive experimenting (in the gym and low down on the wall), but it sure seems to me a back up is not necessary. It's simply that smooth (using my 9.8 and 10.2 ropes). Obviously, you want to take care, go slow, and keep a firm hold on the brake line, but I know there are those (including one or two of my current climbing partners) who have said, "I would back it up anyway", but isn't that the purpose of the Pivot--to dispense with all the crazy shenanigans related to backing up the lowering operation? Are there any more users of the DMM Pivot out there who have done extensive lowering out at the crag--can you comment? I found I dislike being belayed in guide mode on something that is hard for me...for example...ME, hanging over the roof: "Hey, can you lower me about two feet back to that stance just before the crux." MY BUDDY: "Uh, no, I can't. I would need to set up a back up...too much of a pain in the ass. Just try it again from there." (As an aside, I hate belaying a second in guide mode with the Pivot on any rope bigger than 9.8--way too strenuous. Or is it just me?)

Sounds like your partners don't know how to belay using an ATC in Guide mode.  Lowering 2 feet can easily be accomplished without using the release hole or a backup...you just need to lever the carabiner up and down.  Not practical for a whole pitch, but for situations like that there's absolutely no reason he couldn't lower you.