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Using rope-loop to belay on multi-pitch

Jeremy B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0
eli poss wrote:

I recall reading test results that the flat 8 rolled around 800 or 900 lbs, but I certainly could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time my memory failed me. However, I can tell you from personal that it held the bodyweight of two followers, both around 160 or 170, without rolling. I can't remember if this was regular fig 8 or fig 8 with a correctly tied yosemite finish.

I've seen a variety of numbers, but the easiest to locate are Tom Moyer's tests which showed the flat eight rolling from 110 to 590 pounds (~0.5 - 2.6 kN) depending on how carefully it was dressed and pre-tensioned.  Like the EDK it does seem to tighten up after rolling, but of course eats more tail.  What's interesting from his tests is that in static line the eight appears much stronger; all but the very first (750 lbs / 3.3 kN) held over 2,000 lbs (9 kN) before rolling.  (Perhaps the first was incorrectly recorded as using static line?)

I would expect longer tails to be more common when connecting to ropes for a rappel, whereas someone tying in is likely to minimize the amount of tail and might leave only a fist's worth.  The idea of using the loop to transfer force to the anchor is perfectly sound, my concern with clipping the rope loop as a general practice is that many might not appreciate the cases in which it's a bad idea.  (Specifically, those in which the load is taken by the belayer and not transferred to the anchor.)

Consider two cases: in the first your anchor is far back from the edge, and so you extend yourself from the anchor and take a solid stance at the edge to belay the follower; clipping the rope loop would be reasonable.  In the second case, you're still on the ledge as your partner leads the next pitch above you.  Suppose you weigh 80 kg with all your gear, your tie-in is still an eight but not nicely dressed, and you aren't taut to the anchor:  it will take about 0.8 kN to pull you into the air, but your knot has the potential to roll with only 0.5 kN of force.  In most cases the knot will hold, you'll get lifted up, the line to the anchor comes taut, and all is well.  In a few cases the knot might pop open before you get lifted.  (A similar situation might apply if you have a well-braced stance above your second, but the anchor is off to the side with slack in the line.)

Andrew Rice · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 11
eli poss wrote:

Your right, I guess you would still be protected by whatever pro your follower hasn't cleaned. Hopefully it doesn't pop.

However, if you have actually tried it you would know that it is more comfortable because the force of your follower goes directly to the anchor instead of pulling you between the anchor and the follower. Rgold, somebody who has been climbing for longer than I've been alive and probably longer than you, who also happens to understand physics and how it applies to various things in climbing, regularly advocates for belaying the follower off the rope loop in a direct belay situation. I would think that if this technique is so unsafe as you put it then somebody would have been hurt by now. 

Last thing I say before unfollowing this. I didn't say it was "so unsafe." I simply said I didn't think it added anything useful enough to compensate for the potential for error it adds. You could probably belay off the rope loop 1,000 times and be just fine. It's that 1001 time that I'm concerned about if something doesn't add significant value. I just want to say that I HAVE accidentally untied the wrong knot before at a belay and, luckily, caught myself before relying on that rope in any serious way. So, yes, I am speaking from my own fallibility

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

i’m a bit late to this party, although it seems as if I’ve been participating indirectly.

I learned about the rope-loop belay from a post (there may have been more than one) on rec. climbing by the Black Diamond engineer Chris Harmston, who was one of the most knowledgeable people on the subject of gear I’ve encountered on the internet.  I guess I’ve been using the technique for about twenty years now, maybe more, on crags, walls, and alpine environments.  I’ve caught tons of upper belayed and leader falls, including one at very near FF2,  and, once or twice, sat in complete comfort while a second prusiks past and overhang.  The only time I ever belay off the harness belay loop is when I’m unanchored (so on the ground or in the gym).

It isn’t something revolutionary, it simply makes holding falls easier on the belayer and the harness (the harness part according to Harmston, but also 20kN in a post above).

If you are going to use the technique, your tie-in knot should have a backup knot (this is essential for bowlines but many find it optional for figure-eights).  With a backup knot (typically a barrel knot), both bowlines and figure eights are immune from rolling when ring-loaded, so all of the discussion about potential dangers from rolling is moot.

[ I should add that we really know nothing about loaded ring-loaded figure-eights rolling—that three-way load configuration has never been tested as far as I know.  The knot would have to roll even though the anchor strand is under full tension, which is a completely different situation from the EDK set-up, and in my guesstimation will make rolling impossible, as there will be no slack to allow the top turn to expand and roll over the bottom turn.  Moreover, the test would have to employ instantaneous impact loads, not the slow-pull weighting of the usual EDK tests.  With an instantaneous load, if you can get a loaded ring-loaded figure-eight to roll, it will only roll once (the rope tension drops precipitously when the knot rolls), and that situation would probably be secured by just having an ordinarily long tail on the tie-in knot.  Furthermore, the ring-loading configuration is only a possibility for leader-fall catches when the belayer is lifted, and so is not a concern when the method is used for belaying the second.]

The belayer’s  tie-in should also be completely snug, so that any load on the belay device is transmitted directly to the anchor without any intermediate loading of the harness.  This is easily achieved by anchoring with a clove hitch, but if some other method is used, it will be hard to get all the slack out of the anchor line and then the method is not as good.  

Clipping both the rope loop and the harness belay loop is likely to put the harness back in the system, and since the only point is getting the harness (and the belayer’s back and kidneys) out of the system, there is no point in clipping both, and the answer to the original question is, leave the belay loop out.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374

Would this (clipping the rope) have any application/merit in an anchor for a light belayer/heavy climber situation?

Thanks! OLH

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

For belaying the leader, it has only its intrinsic advantage of transmitting the load to the anchor without loading the harness.  For belaying the second, the fact that the harness isn't loaded might be considerably more comfortable if the second is a lot heavier than you are; I think that's where the major benefit would be.

dave Hause · · carrboro, nc · Joined May 2013 · Points: 325
Old lady H wrote:

Would this (clipping the rope) have any application/merit in an anchor for a light belayer/heavy climber situation?

Thanks! OLH

Nope.

John Barritt · · The 405 · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 1,083
Old lady H wrote:

Would this (clipping the rope) have any application/merit in an anchor for a light belayer/heavy climber situation?

Thanks! OLH

Yes, exactly the point. JB

John Barritt · · The 405 · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 1,083
rgold wrote:

For belaying the leader, it has only its intrinsic advantage of transmitting the load to the anchor without loading the harness.  For belaying the second, the fact that the harness isn't loaded might be considerably more comfortable if the second is a lot heavier than you are; I think that's where the major benefit would be.

Yes, been doing it for years. Also the belay loop is redundant, and not a problem if clipped as it doesn't come under load.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

So here is what I think I am hearing from those that discourage the use of the tie-in loop, and please do correct me if I'm wrong:

This technique has its nuances and caveats which could potentially make it unsafe if those are not understood.

If that's your only reason not to use the tie-in loop then you might want to reconsider your stance. I think the above statement could be applied to a lot of things in climbing, included widely accepted practices. Perhaps we should be educating climbers about the correct way to use the rope loop rather than discouraging it. 

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

Lol. I think we all have too much time on our hands. This is what happens when everyone on the damn forum is a troll.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
Tradiban wrote:

Lol. I think we all have too much time on our hands. This is what happens when everyone on the damn forum is a troll.

Speaking  for yourself, I trust?

John Barritt · · The 405 · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 1,083
eli poss wrote:

So here is what I think I am hearing from those that discourage the use of the tie-in loop, and please do correct me if I'm wrong:

This technique has its nuances and caveats which could potentially make it unsafe if those are not understood.

If that's your only reason not to use the tie-in loop then you might want to reconsider your stance. I think the above statement could be applied to a lot of things in climbing, included widely accepted practices. Perhaps we should be educating climbers about the correct way to use the rope loop rather than discouraging it. 

Are you confusing the belay loop with tie in loop Eli?

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 423
rgold wrote:

The belayer’s  tie-in should also be completely snug, so that any load on the belay device is transmitted directly to the anchor without any intermediate loading of the harness.  This is easily achieved by anchoring with a clove hitch, but if some other method is used, it will be hard to get all the slack out of the anchor line and then the method is not as good.

Could you say more about this? Although a backup knot addresses my concerns about ring loading, I'm still very confused about how the weight is getting transferred to the anchor and not the belayer.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
John Barritt wrote:

Are you confusing the belay loop with tie in loop Eli?

Not that I'm aware of. Did I make a typo that I'm too blind to see?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
David Kerkeslager wrote:

Could you say more about this? Although a backup knot addresses my concerns about ring loading, I'm still very confused about how the weight is getting transferred to the anchor and not the belayer.

Gosh, I'm not sure what to say beyond the description already given...do these pictures from the UK Climbing site referenced by the OP help?

Note that the climber, who is evidently demonstrating all these things indoors, has thought better about what the pictures show and has added the backup barrel hitch in these photos.

Khoi · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45
John Barritt wrote:

Can you cite a single case of documented belay loop failure in the history of rock climbing?

And don't say Todd Skinner.  That was a case of gross neglect of gear and pushing gear far beyond its usable lifespan, AKA: pilot error.

Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50

There's a discussion on rolling flat figure eight. Does tieing in using (important - properly dressed) bowline when belaing off the rope loop is a like do the trick? To my the best understanding sheet bend is self-tighten (when dressed properly) thus bowline (when dressed properly) won't roll.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

if people are that obsessed with belaying this way for the small number of scenarios that you would use it, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just use an alpine butterfly and avoid all ring loading and capsizing together.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

John, what about when the anchor is too low to use a guide plate comfortably? In this situation I usually sit at the edge of what ever ledge I'm on and do a direct belay off the tie-in loop. Do you just never encounter these belay stations or do you opt for a belay through a redirect. I can think of several belay stations where the anchor is either a tree or a boulder on a ledge and so my options are slinging them at the base (low anchor point) or slinging them higher up and creating a lot of leverage.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Pete Spri wrote:

if people are that obsessed with belaying this way for the small number of scenarios that you would use it, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just use an alpine butterfly and avoid all ring loading and capsizing together.

Ring loading and capsizing are not a problem, which means they don't have to be avoided.  As for usage, I use it most of the time, viewing direct and redirected anchor belays as responses to a small number of scenarios calling for something else.  And it has nothing to do with "obsession," thank you very much.  Folks have been using this as their primary technique for twenty years or more---it just never caught on much in the US.   I've got plenty of experience with all the modalities, and think that---for trad climbs that haven't been diluted with bolted anchors (I know, a vanishing species)---the belay off the rope loop fits most situations better than the other methods..

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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