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Yelling at Tahquitz/Suicide

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 4,402
Tradiban wrote:

My partner made a mistake and no harm so no foul, he feels bad about it. Story over. I should have been more clear about my silent system and after that happened now I am, hence this thread. Perhaps people can learn from my experience. I've stated how I am fixing it and if anyone doesn't like it they don't have to use it.

You just jealous that you didn't think of this topic first, hater.

Now, I'm asking you, what is wrong with the silent system? If you have legit criticisms, let's hear them but the truth is you don't, do you?

it's already been covered.  you only have yourself to blame if you're not up to speed.  i do see your juvenile dilemma.  after declaring not to read what someone had to say, if you do read that afterall to clue yourself in, you would end up looking like an empty posturing idiot

your partner made a mistake, no harm no foul, according to you.  by that logic, you should far more easily get over that other party's sloppy communication too, since likewise no harm no foul.  plus none of them were the one who couldn't do what he was supposed to, who inexplicably did exactly what he wasn't supposed to, and directly put your life in danger.  but here you are not getting over it

which guiding service do you work for?  i know a number of outfits that guide at Idy.  they would want to know if one of theirs exhibited this much questionable thinking and bad judgement.  they prob wouldn't want a liability like that in their folds.  or maybe you're one of those self-proclaimed "guides" who might still have much to learn yourself, who still blunders evidently, whose clients would have no idea you're just another ticking mishap waiting to happen

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175

I guided myself back onto this thread, and of course I didn't protect the traverse and now I'm f*cked.

x15x15 · · Use Ignore Button · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 275
Burcheydawwwwwwg wrote:

I guided myself ..

Doh!1!  Just lost locolocal status brahjaman!!! rhymes with rastaman!!!,,,... just say NO TO GUIDES...

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

7 pages - wow.

When things like in OP occur, what happened to just sorting it out with your partner on the way home as to what you'll instead do next time?  ;-)

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Bill Lawry wrote:

7 pages - wow.

When things like in OP occur, what happened to just sorting it out with your partner on the way home as to what you'll instead do next time?  ;-)

Just working it out with your partner? That would never work. :)

x15x15 · · Use Ignore Button · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 275
Benjamin Chapman wrote:

Yawn!

Another gem!!!1!

Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 18,818
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Sean wrote:

it's already been covered.  you only have yourself to blame if you're not up to speed.  i do see your juvenile dilemma.  after declaring not to read what someone had to say, if you do read that afterall to clue yourself in, you would end up looking like an empty posturing idiot

your partner made a mistake, no harm no foul, according to you.  by that logic, you should far more easily get over that other party's sloppy communication too, since likewise no harm no foul.  plus none of them were the one who couldn't do what he was supposed to, who inexplicably did exactly what he wasn't supposed to, and directly put your life in danger.  but here you are not getting over it

which guiding service do you work for?  i know a number of outfits that guide at Idy.  they would want to know if one of theirs exhibited this much questionable thinking and bad judgement.  they prob wouldn't want a liability like that in their folds.  or maybe you're one of those self-proclaimed "guides" who might still have much to learn yourself, who still blunders evidently, whose clients would have no idea you're just another ticking mishap waiting to happen

So you have no criticism of the Silent Method (TM)? It IS the bees knees isn't it? 

Imagine a utopia...the birds chirping and just the sound of the wind in the trees. You and your brah are crushing it, no words, no yelling, only the sweet stench of success. Sounds wonderful doesn't it? Join me brah, in the silent belay revolution.

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 4,402

the silent method has issues.  how could you not know?  besides, i already said it.  but you would rather paint yourself into a corner by declaring not to read that, letting your own internet angst hem yourself into a trap of your own making.  when the answer was stated but you're just too inept or unwilling to read it, then it's on you that you still don't know.  i wouldn't mind repeating, of course.  but first thing first, what guiding company do you work for?  or are you one of those self-proclaimed "guides" who might still have much to learn yourself, who still blunders evidently, whose clients would have no idea you're just another ticking mishap waiting to happen?

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Sean wrote:

the silent method has issues.  how could you not know?  besides, i already said it.  but you would rather paint yourself into a corner by declaring not to read that, letting your own internet angst hem yourself into a trap of your own making.  when the answer was stated but you're just too inept or unwilling to read it, then it's on you that you still don't know.  i wouldn't mind repeating, of course.  but first thing first, what guiding company do you work for?  or are you one of those self-proclaimed "guides" who might still have much to learn yourself, who still blunders evidently, whose clients would have no idea you're just another ticking mishap waiting to happen?

Where are you getting this guiding thing? And yes, please repeat your argument, in bullet points please, I don't have time to read your long winded bs. 

Cody Younkin · · Encinitas, California · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 0

You made a post about people yelling.....

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 4,402
Tradiban wrote:

Radio people give me a major NOOB alert and probably will get themselves into trouble with or without good communication.

However I have used them guiding so that a total noob feels more comfortable and doesn't freak out.

if you're not a guide, then you need to avoid that sort of loose wording that gives people the false impression that you're a guide.  if you were just out climbing with noobs, then it was just that, or at best you were playing a guide to noobs

good, it's important to establish that you don't actually have any climbing instruction credentials.  you sound like an uptight poseur loudmouth so far, trying to instruct on the internet and advocate to others a silent comm method which has issues you're (clear by now) completely oblivious of, with no regard as to how that might endanger others more

Adam Stackhouse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 13,970
Burcheydawwwwwwg wrote:

All due respect, FrankPS - the name calling is tantamount to the point-making.  

Funny shit!

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Sean wrote:

if you're not a guide, then you need to avoid that sort of loose wording that gives people the false impression that you're a guide.  if you were just out climbing with noobs, then it was just that, or at best you were playing a guide to noobs

good, it's important to establish that you don't actually have any climbing instruction credentials.  you sound like an uptight poseur loudmouth so far, trying to instruct on the internet and advocate to others a silent comm method which has issues you're (clear by now) completely oblivious of, with no regard as to how that might endanger others more

Ah. I was using the word "guide" to describe the scenario.

If you can't point out the flaws with The Silent Method (TM) then you have lost this round.

But what we should really talk about is your need for a hug.  XOXO

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 4,402
Tradiban wrote:

And yes, please repeat your argument, in bullet points please 

some aspects of climbing (or life for that matter) are involved by its nature, or even complicated.  what's important to learn doesn't always come in simple bullet pts.  lazy clueless people like you can stay as ignorant as you want.  but when you mouth off with bogus talk, people are bound to call you on it, over and over.  maybe that's why you struggle so much in this trainwreck of a thread.  had you been able to bring yourself to listen more and learn, you could've seen the holes in your own understanding, and have less messes of your own making out on the rock

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 4,402

belayer in silent mode depends on rope movement to anticipate the leader to have built an anchor.  the belayer doesn't actually know that as fact, not like a voice command shouted down by leader could definitively indicate

toward the end of a long pitch and low on gear, or if you've missed the anchor spot, or have led further out than realize, it's not uncommon that you might pause at a spot looking to anchor, try to but find out you can't, then have to climb on some more, hope that the next spot would do.  or exhausted leader has to take an extra long breather high up, or to deal with whatev, or etc

on the belayer's end, the leader has stopped, time passes, and then the rope moves again, til what lil left of rope pays out, as belayer cleans anchor and starts to follow, assured by continuing rope movement, as if on belay.  except there's no anchor yet

if the second falls near start of pitch, that fall wouldn't be caught by an anchored topside belay as mistakenly expected by the second.  a simul-ing second must never fall.  but that's exactly what might happen

i'm not omniscient, and i try not to underestimate what the mtn could throw at you to make you do the unexpected or even the very odd, which with unfortunate timing could end up having the rope mimic the crude silent movement signals that you're betting your life on

also, familiarity matters for the silent mode.  once out of sight, you depend on being able to anticipate or reason out what must be happening with your leader.  helps to be on the same page, know your partner's tendencies, or have worked out how to avoid specific problems

when you push your silent method on noobs and strangers alike, you throw that important familiarity factor right out the window.  you want them to abandon their functional and reliable voice commands (when done properly and within earshot), and go with a different method with partners that the noobs only know for a limited time, or no familiarity at all with the strangers

your fiasco belayer was evidently more used to voice commands, since he reacted to them.  you didn't do enough to make sure he fully got it, to actually stick to silent mode even while hearing other voice commands.  there's more to it than just informing someone that you two are going silent mode and to ignore voices.  you pushed the silent method on someone who wasn't ready to use it on an actual climb yet, and got what you got.  that could happen to other noobs and strangers that you want to switch to silent mode

in your so-called utopia, you don't care how others might end up endangering themselves more just so there could be less yelling out on Tahquitz to suit you.  i find yelling unpleasant too, but am not pushed by it to that kind of desperate brink like you.  others as ill-advised by you actually don't have to abandon voice commands just for the sake of better ambiance for me.  i would rather they use the comm method that's safest for them.  later on, as experienced and familiar partners opting for silent mode, knowing what they're in for and how best to pull that off, that's reasonable enough, and all the better then to have less voices on the mtn

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Sean wrote:

belayer in silent mode depends on rope movement to anticipate the leader to have built an anchor.  the belayer doesn't actually know that as fact, not like a voice command shouted down by leader could definitively indicate

toward the end of a long pitch and low on gear, or if you've missed the anchor spot, or have led further out than realize, it's not uncommon that you might pause at a spot looking to anchor, try to but find out you can't, then have to climb on some more, hope that the next spot would do.  or exhausted leader has to take an extra long breather high up, or to deal with whatev, or etc

on the belayer's end, the leader has stopped, time passes, and then the rope moves again, til what lil left of rope pays out, as belayer cleans anchor and starts to follow, assured by continuing rope movement, as if on belay.  except there's no anchor yet

if the second falls near start of pitch, that fall wouldn't be caught by an anchored topside belay as mistakenly expected by the second.  a simul-ing second must never fall.  but that's exactly what might happen

i'm not omniscient, and i try not to underestimate what the mtn could throw at you to make you do the unexpected or even the very odd, which with unfortunate timing could end up having the rope mimic the crude silent movement signals that you're betting your life on

also, familiarity matters for the silent mode.  once out of sight, you depend on being able to anticipate or reason out what must be happening with your leader.  helps to be on the same page, know your partner's tendencies, or have worked out how to avoid specific problems

when you push your silent method on noobs and strangers alike, you throw that important familiarity factor right out the window.  you want them to abandon their functional and reliable voice commands (when done properly and within earshot), and go with a different method with partners that the noobs only know for a limited time, or no familiarity at all with the strangers

your fiasco belayer was evidently more used to voice commands, since he reacted to them.  you didn't do enough to make sure he fully got it, to actually stick to silent mode even while hearing other voice commands.  there's more to it than just informing someone that you two are going silent mode and to ignore voices.  you pushed the silent method on someone who wasn't ready to use it on an actual climb yet, and got what you got.  that could happen to other noobs and strangers that you want to switch to silent mode

in your so-called utopia, you don't care how others might end up endangering themselves more just so there could be less yelling out on Tahquitz to suit you.  i find yelling unpleasant too, but am not pushed by it to that kind of desperate brink like you.  others as ill-advised by you actually don't have to abandon voice commands just for the sake of better ambiance for me.  i would rather they use the comm method that's safest for them.  later on, as experienced and familiar partners opting for silent mode, knowing what they're in for and how best to pull that off, that's reasonable enough, and all the better then to have less voices on the mtn

Finally! That wasn't so hard was it? Took you guys like 9 frickin pages to get here. 

These are good points sean, however I'm way ahead of ya with a little thing I call "pitch management". So, correct me if I'm wrong but you are afraid that the follower can't be sure that an anchor is built and that they are on belay? If so, you could have said that in one paragraph, but I digress.

By pitch management I mean that in a multipitch scenario the leader would and should be planning out the pitches such that they don't run out of rope. Usually this happens with a topo. In a scenario where the anchor spots aren't relatively known it's the leaders responsibility to be aware of how much rope is left (as it always is) so they don't get into a unknown simul situation. However they could also plan on a simul situation if the conditions and partner are for it.

To keep this short, I think your analysis is very clinical and doesn't consider the reality of climbing. Besides all that it's well established in this thread that all the damn yelling could cause confusion and actually introduces more problems. 

The silent meathod isn't perfect but it keeps the static out of the communication system.

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 4,402
Tradiban wrote:

Finally! That wasn't so hard was it? Took you guys like 9 frickin pages to get here. 

These are good points sean, however I'm way ahead of ya with a little thing I call "pitch management". So, correct me if I'm wrong but you are afraid that the follower can't be sure that an anchor is built and that they are on belay? If so, you could have said that in one paragraph, but I digress.

By pitch management I mean that in a multipitch scenario the leader would and should be planning out the pitches such that they don't run out of rope. Usually this happens with a topo. In a scenario where the anchor spots aren't relatively known it's the leaders responsibility to be aware of how much rope is left (as it always is) so they don't get into a unknown simul situation. However they could also plan on a simul situation if the conditions and partner are for it.

To keep this short, I think your analysis is very clinical and doesn't consider the reality of climbing. Besides all that it's well established in this thread that all the damn yelling could cause confusion and actually introduces more problems. 

The silent meathod isn't perfect but it keeps the static out of the communication system.

if you think climbing always goes according to a pitch management plan (which btw is very clinical), then you're delusional.  your state of mind could also deteriorate as the climbing takes its toll on you further and further up into the climb.  climbers as humans could also simply make errors.  not taking real factors like those into acct actually shows you're the one who's out of touch with the realities of climbing

if something unexpected or strange happens with unfortunate timing and causes the rope to mimic the sequence of fairly crude movement signals, the belayer simply wouldn't know, and that belayer is programmed to act mistakenly.  there's no way in silent mode around that.  and there's nothing wrong with admitting that.  you had to qualify your oversimplified representations with "probably" and "pretty much" yourself, which already were admissions that ultimately there's guessing involved in the way you do this.  the perfect disaster scenario might only align to happen rarely.  most of those rare times you might even guess right.  you might even get away with it some of those times when you guess wrong.  but all it takes is one time for you to die once and stay dead

btw, you didn't have anything to say about pushing the silent method on noobs and strangers alike being ill-advised.  in silent mode, that would mean you concur

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Sean wrote:

if you think climbing always goes according to a pitch management plan (which btw is very clinical), then you're delusional.  your state of mind could also deteriorate as the climbing takes its toll on you further and further up into the climb.  climbers as humans could also simply make errors.  not taking real factors like those into acct actually shows you're the one who's out of touch with the realities of climbing

if something unexpected or strange happens with unfortunate timing and causes the rope to mimic the sequence of fairly crude movement signals, the belayer simply wouldn't know, and that belayer is programmed to act mistakenly.  there's no way in silent mode around that.  and there's nothing wrong with admitting that.  you had to qualify your oversimplified representations with "probably" and "pretty much" yourself, which already were admissions that ultimately there's guessing involved in the way you do this.  the perfect disaster scenario might only align to happen rarely.  most of those rare times you might even guess right.  you might even get away with it some of those times when you guess wrong.  but all it takes is one time for you to die once and stay dead

btw, you didn't have anything to say about pushing the silent method on noobs and strangers alike being ill-advised.  in silent mode, that would mean you concur

I haven't pushed anything on anyone. It's a free country.

The belayor isn't programmed to do anything except belay and climb and when to do those actions. It's a simple and effective system, more so than screaming like an idiot.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern California
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