Getting your SPI

I disagree with Tico. His elitism is what I find frustrating with some fellow guides.

The tone and content of his words are like saying if you are studying to become a nurse or a PA or a physical therapist or anything less than a doctor, your contribution to the medical field is null and void and you are lesser as a person. I think most of us would disagree with this position and may even find it offensive.

A more helpful comment would be to examine the type of work you would like to do as a guide, and what is reasonably available for you work wise. If you want to work internationally, guide big multi pitch routes, and make this your full time profession - a reasonable goal would be to go ahead and jump right into the rock program. If you are looking to get your feet wet, can only swing local guiding and don't have access to multi pitch, than the SPI course and exam would prepare you well for that. As a full rock guide, I find my SPI material incredibly valuable, both from a technical AND soft skill side of things. Even though I chose to pursue full certification in the rock discipline, I don't regret the money or time I spent in the SPI curriculum. 

Sam Keller wrote:

Spend your $$ on becoming a better climber.

The world is full of shitty climbers with no experience who took a month long NOLS course in lieu of actually getting outside and learning how to climb.

I've guided for years and never been asked for a cert. more advanced than WFR. The truth is that guide companies know how expensive it is and many are willing to take you on without it if you have solid experience.

The 800$ you spend on the SPI + exam is a month long climbing trip. Days on rock is where judgement comes from.

A guide service that doesn't want more.than a WFR from its guides is not one I'd use. I have used guides without certs, but I think most legit guiding services are moving toward having some certification for their guides.

Your comments seem to disparage the concept of certification.

Take this for what it is as my comments may be repetitive of what's already been said. I just don't feel like reading all the troll comments.

I recently finished up my SPI exam. Initially, I had the same questions that you did regarding which track to take. Do the SPI course and exam. It's worthwhile. Not only will it build skills and confidence, it also gets you in touch with people who have been around the block once or twice. Also, I did see mention that it looks good on a resume and that is absolutely true. You could spend the money and go on a month long climbing trip, sure. That's not necessarily going to benefit you aside from adding climbs to your tick list. I found it much more useful and productive to be put into a somewhat stressful situation and expected to perform. It's not like going out for a day climbing with your buddies.

Regarding guiding without a cert: Good luck with that law suit. As an AMGA certified guide/instructor, the AMGA will have your back as long as you're working within your certification. If you don't have that, your "Guide Service" better have some damn good insurance.

Also, some of the tips and tricks I learned from my guides would be things that I otherwise wouldn't know. Being an SPI opens up doors in the guiding world and will still give you the access to working toward the prerequisites for the Rock Guide Course. Jumping into the RGC is extremely expensive and you shouldn't do that unless you absolutely are sure about guiding. The SPI should help you make that determination.

Finally, by taking the SPI Course/Exam you're helping your fellow AMGA guides/members make a living. 

Good luck

You guys are funny, but what should one expect from a forum about AMGA.

I'm not against anyone getting AMGA certs, and think that they complement a depth of experience quite well. There are several amazing guides out there who are fully invested in the AMGA world.

Excuse me for judging this dudes MP profile page but if he is a 5.8 trad leader and 5.11 sport then he should go spend his $$ to get more experience and not on a piece of paper. 

When you are leading a 5.8 or 5.9 trad pitch for a gym climber who you just taught to lead belay will you be more happy for the piece of paper or the years you spent climbing and refining your ability to actually climb.

Like I said I'm not against experienced AMGA guides, but I am against inexperienced climbers with SPI certs. 

Judgement comes from experience and the only way to get that is from days on rock in different situations.

Cool stories about all the guides in your area having certs. I'll keep the money I saved to go to Spain and Jordan this winter to climb my face off. Wouldn't want to miss out on "refining my craft" or any opportunities for "continuing education".

Climbing harder grades and experience don't really go hand-in-hand. I'm not going to argue with you, but that logic is flawed. To each his/her own.

Luke Lindeman wrote:

I'm against guides working for shit wages, which is why I'm against the SPI program.  It's not elitism, it's economics.  Learn the craft, value yourself against what you paid to learn the craft, and demand wages accordingly.  For example, I rarely work for less than $450/day, and never less than $300.  It's not my fucking hobby, it's how I feed my son.  

Tico, my analogy stands.

If someone has a cold (wants to climb their first 5.6 outdoor single pitch), would you recommend they only see the chief of medicine at John Hopkins (an IFMGA guide)? Or would their local health care provider (an SPI certified guide) provide them a sufficiently safe line of care? Do you see the chief of medicine at John Hopkins trying to destroy all the 'minute-clinics' to insure he can feed his or her family?

That's awesome your certifications can command such a high level of pay in America. I also guide for a living, and would love to make what you are making. I personally believe in the idea of terrain guidelines, and would like to see certifications required for the type of guiding done. To me, that doesn't mean doing away with or belittling the lower levels of training, because they are perfectly adequate for the clientele they intend to serve, as well as the guides the intend to educate.

To the OP, sorry I engaged in some thread drift. Whatever you chose, I hope you find the industry encouraging and supportive. Definitely get lots of opinions, because no one opinion is completely correct - there is some validity to everyone's point.

Nice straw man.  Would you recommend a part time doc?  A doc with a "real job", but who loves low-level medicine, even though he can't hack an international minimum standard?

Tico. Nice one. here in the good Ol USA  where health care is for profit your damned right I would like to know a cheap doctor who could not pass the medical boards but knows enough to save my life. heck i have used Vets on more than one ocasion to get affordable Lyme disease meds without haveing to go through the people health clinic and spend a weeks pay for the visit, tests and meds.....

Insert pizza analogy here.

I'm not suggesting hiring anyone who isn't qualified for what they are offering. There are health care providers who can help me manage a cold, stitch up a small wound, recommend a diet plan, help me rehab an injury, etc. etc. that aren't fully fledged doctors.

It's not a straw man attack. If I understand you (please correct me if I don't), you are suggesting the international minimum standard is IFMGA, and anything below that has no place or merit. You did not say those words exactly, but that's what I'm extrapolating. I'm equating being an IFMGA guide to being a doctor. And just like how every medical situation does not need to have a doctor's level of education to help solve it, not every client out there needs an IFMGA guide to help them achieve their goals.

IMHO, getting a SPI would give a climber, who's interested in teaching people to climb on not-extremely technical routes, a level of certification and access to resume building and AMGA advocates and instructors.  Then, if that climber decided they wanted to move into the guiding track and make that path their career, they have experience with how AMGA runs their certification process, the climber has interacted and networked with people already involved in guiding as a career and has some experience working with clients in a climbing environment.  I don't see any of that being a negative and it does allow climbers to dip their toes into the commercial climbing world without the significant investments, time and money, of moving into the formal Rock Guide program.

Sam Keller wrote:

 The truth is that guide companies know how expensive it is and many are willing to take you on without it if you have solid experience.

Accept a lot of insurance companies are starting to buckle down on this. In most fields, insurance companies require workers to have requisite certifications or licenses and the recreational realm is getting added to the list. I had to get my cert specifically for this reason.

Andrew Yasso wrote:

I'm not suggesting hiring anyone who isn't qualified for what they are offering. There are health care providers who can help me manage a cold, stitch up a small wound, recommend a diet plan, help me rehab an injury, etc. etc. that aren't fully fledged doctors.

It's not a straw man attack. If I understand you (please correct me if I don't), you are suggesting the international minimum standard is IFMGA, and anything below that has no place or merit. You did not say those words exactly, but that's what I'm extrapolating. I'm equating being an IFMGA guide to being a doctor. And just like how every medical situation does not need to have a doctor's level of education to help solve it, not every client out there needs an IFMGA guide to help them achieve their goals.

Look, I'm not defective, and I understand that the cast majority of guiding in the US is glacier walking and tr.  What I do think is that there shouldn't be a very low level "terminal degree", and a person without the skills and commitment to take the RGC shouldn't be able to call themselves "certified".  The bar isn't very high here.  I'm not going to go further with this healthcare analogy.  We're not necessary, we're recreational.  We're not saving lives, we're taking healthy people into a relatively dangerous environment for fun; we should have high standards, and the SPI isn't one.  

I get where Tico is comming from . Lots of folks take the SPI and then tout that they are AMGA certified without  revealing that they are not certified to take anyone up a multi pitch climb.  but i also feel that it is totally fine for a guide  service that is  certified at the higher level to hire someone who is SPI certified and then have them  guide multi pitch  provideing the certified owner of the company deems the spi certified guide is  going to be in their comfort zone. just like a construction job where the boss has the licence and the workers are under his supervision.  at the same time the employee should be striveing to get that higher certification if they are serious about the profession.  

I think SPI is a great program. Don’t really understand why folks are bashing it. In fact, in my limited experience, the rock guides I know spend a lot of their professional time doing SPI stuff. Literally running top rope cragging days for first time clients who are just trying the climbing thing on a lark. They are not “guiding”.  When I was a TRSM (precursor to AMGA SPI) back in the day, I ran lots of top rope programs. I worked a lot. Occasionally Rock Guides (from the large school I worked for) would have to show up to help due to large numbers of clients. Rock Guides also spend A LOT of their time waiting tables or banging nails somewhere, so it is a little disingenuous to say an SPI is a “part-time” climbing instructor. The AMGA SPI is also NOT a simple entry-level certification. It is actually way more information than most recreational climbers will ever learn in their careers. 

The analogy that comes to mind is the emergency medical system. You do not need a highly trained paramedic (training = 6 months+, 5-10,000 dollars) to show up to a twisted ankle. Someone with a SOLO WFA (2 days training, $150) is more than enough.

The problem with a low level certification is that it allows for low starting wages, which limits mid-career wages.  Your experience, which is geographically limited and a decade old (trsm ended in '07 or so) isn't the norm.  The SPI is very much entry level, and by design limited in depth and breadth.  I've worked pretty hard to raise guide service wages during my career, it's insightful to hear non-guides devalue a complete education and a commensurate living wage.  

It is also insightful to hear someone with a certain level of certification (are you at the highest cert level available? Or do you consider YOUR current level "enough" even though there are higher levels available to you?) bash a lower level of certification from their very own organization. The fact of the matter, independent of anyone's opinion, is that SPI is a great certification for someone to work at the level it is designed for.