Climbing RR right after it rains.... is OK!

Seems all the hotshot pro's do it....

Woods, Lucas, Lambert, etc.

Ehhhhhhhhhh, to this thread should be renamed climbing in the time of insta-spray.

Looks like there are so many holds on that route that could break... I mean she might even split the mountain open?

That's my sarcastic comment. My honest comment, is that the discussion on rain in Red Rock deserves some critical thinking. I'm not trying to justify what she or anyone else does. I personally chose not to take my mother-in-law climbing yesterday, who was very much looking forward to it, because of rain. It's not because I think climbing everywhere yesterday was dangerous, but because the routes I would have taken her on would have been beginner friendly, low-angle, susceptible to rain and fragile rock. The type of climbing we would have done would have been completely affected by the rain and a poor choice.

However, I could see getting out in the early morning when it wasn't raining, or drizzling at most, and trying a crack route like that without any real concern. Look how overhanging it is. Look at how much crack climbing it includes. There isn't a single hold to break. If people are going out there and watching Katie climb, and then think it's okay for them to go climb anywhere else in Red Rock, then sure, I guess she's setting a bad example. I suppose however that no one was there but her and the photographer. Now it is posted on the internet, but the only people who know she did it on a rainy-ish day are you, me, and the smattering of other locals who are going to complain about it and actually draw way more attention to it than it would have received.

Again, not justifying anyone's actions. I just wish as locals we could have the nuanced discussion that rain and Red Rock deserves. It's not black and white, and if you keep treating it as such you're going to have less folks jumping on the bandwagon of 'respect the rock.' Give people some credit and let them think critically.

The ethics about climbing after the rain is going the way of most ethics in this time of "I want it and I want it now."  I ran into a woman (local) yesterday who climbed after it rained and got the "The ground was dry." bullshit line.  The rock is here is very porous and holds the water.  But you know that people will come up with any justification to do what they want, regardless of how it affects others. 

I've pretty much given up and expecting anything better.

Andrew Yasso wrote:

Looks like there are so many holds on that route that could break... I mean she might even split the mountain open?

That's my sarcastic comment. My honest comment, is that the discussion on rain in Red Rock deserves some critical thinking. I'm not trying to justify what she or anyone else does. I personally chose not to take my mother-in-law climbing yesterday, who was very much looking forward to it, because of rain. It's not because I think climbing everywhere yesterday was dangerous, but because the routes I would have taken her on would have been beginner friendly, low-angle, susceptible to rain and fragile rock. The type of climbing we would have done would have been completely affected by the rain and a poor choice.

However, I could see getting out in the early morning when it wasn't raining, or drizzling at most, and trying a crack route like that without any real concern. Look how overhanging it is. Look at how much crack climbing it includes. There isn't a single hold to break. If people are going out there and watching Katie climb, and then think it's okay for them to go climb anywhere else in Red Rock, then sure, I guess she's setting a bad example. I suppose however that no one was there but her and the photographer. Now it is posted on the internet, but the only people who know she did it on a rainy-ish day are you, me, and the smattering of other locals who are going to complain about it and actually draw way more attention to it than it would have received.

Again, not justifying anyone's actions. I just wish as locals we could have the nuanced discussion that rain and Red Rock deserves. It's not black and white, and if you keep treating it as such you're going to have less folks jumping on the bandwagon of 'respect the rock.' Give people some credit and let them think critically.

Isn't it possible that the crack could become more brittle on the edges and get more worn looking like Incredible Handcrack?  Why take a risk at making the crack look more worn out?

frank minunni wrote:

The ethics about climbing after the rain is going the way of most ethics in this time of "I want it and I want it now."  I ran into a woman (local) yesterday who climbed after it rained and got the "The ground was dry." bullshit line.  The rock is here is very porous and holds the water.  But you know that people will come up with any justification to do what they want, regardless of how it affects others. 

I've pretty much given up and expecting anything better.

lol, I saw this on ig too. One of the shittiest part is  that she's a columnist for climbing, and should know better.

Keyhole was awesome and we had it all to ourselves, even got on "a might fright"

For those of you saying that "the ground is dry" isn't good enough, what is your timeframe? And what basis do you have for it? An arbitrary 48 or 72 hours, regardless of wind, sun exposure, etc.?  Curious.

I haven't been on it, but it looks like this route would never get wet due to the giant roof. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) If the rock doesn't get wet, climbing it after rain isn't a problem. 

Creed A wrote:

I haven't been on it, but it looks like this route would never get wet due to the giant roof. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) If the rock doesn't get wet, climbing it after rain isn't a problem. 

for one, the crack would still be wet for cam placements

FrankPS wrote:

For those of you saying that "the ground is dry" isn't good enough, what is your timeframe? And what basis do you have for it? An arbitrary 48 or 72 hours, regardless of wind, sun exposure, etc.?  Curious.

certainly more than 6-8hrs , it rained sat night at 11ish, and Sunday it rained again

I've only been to RR for one trip, but I climb plenty in the Utah desert. I've climbed on somewhat wet rock. Maybe its just what I choose to climb, but shit is literally falling off/out all the time, maybe even worse when its been dry for weeks. 

Are holds breaking off, forever ruining the route really a problem? If I did epi again and 10% of the holds I used were broken or different I doubt I would even notice.

Robert Rowsam wrote:

Are holds breaking off, forever ruining the route really a problem?

Yes. Somewhere on here there's a thread from a year or two ago,  maybe more, but I don't have time to search, where a number of climbs were identified as permanently altered due to hold breakage, in some cases by several number grades. Although most got harder, there was at least one that got significantly easier.

I have no comments regarding Katie Lambert and James Lucas being on this route in the rain and then choosing to post photos of it on the internet.

However, being that I've spent a fair bit time on Desert Gold - including both climbing it and putting in work to rebolt it - I can say that there most definitely ARE some very fragile and very important holds that can break on it. You want a nuanced discussion? Well, calling it a huge roof and completely sheltered from the rain is a gross oversimplification. 

Here's another example from personal experience: Last season I went out to the Great Red Roof on a rainy day thinking it too would be sheltered but upon climbing on it my partner and I realized that water actually seeps down through the stone itself and the crack was some sort of path for runoff (the rock was damp to the touch and one large section was visibly stained with moisture). The Great Red Roof, like Desert Gold, has multiple fragile footholds and "nuanced" edges along the lip of the crack that make it climbable. In fact, a year prior another "pro climber" ripped off a key hold on the route thus upping its grade.

Creed A 

"I haven't been on it, but it looks like this route would never get wet due to the giant roof. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) If the rock doesn't get wet, climbing it after rain isn't a problem. "

your wrong, it does get wet                                                         ·                                ·                    

Robert Rowsam          I've only been to RR for one trip, but I climb plenty in the Utah desert. I've climbed on somewhat wet rock. Maybe its just what I choose to climb, but shit is literally falling off/out all the time, maybe even worse when its been dry for weeks. 

Are holds breaking off, forever ruining the route really a problem? If I did epi again and 10% of the holds I used were broken or different I doubt I would even notice.

Yes its a problem, and from your answer above it seems your a part of it, please don't climb on wet sandstone.

HaustinM wrote:

I break holds all the time. Although unsafe for my belayer and I, it tends to make the routes better. C'est la vie  

I sincerely doubt you possess the strength to break a hold off, those bolts are really strong

HaustinM wrote:

I break holds all the time. Although unsafe for my belayer and I, it tends to make the routes better. C'est la vie  

Josh Janes wrote:

However, being that I've spent a fair bit time on Desert Gold - including both climbing it and putting in work to rebolt it - I can say that there most definitely ARE some very fragile and very important holds that can break on it. You want a nuanced discussion? Well, calling it a huge roof and completely sheltered from the rain is a gross oversimplification. 

Thanks Josh! That's exactly the type of discussion I was hoping for. I haven't been on the route, so my immediate go to is not to necessarily defend or support someone's decision. If I was the OP and chose to post the photo and complain about someone's actions online, I would likely include some of the very points you brought up, bringing legitimacy to my complaints. Broad, sweeping generalizations and 'rules' regarding the rain are short sighted in my eyes. I get it, it's easier to just say no and that everyone sucks, but it's not that simple. Hope those fragile holds you're talking about are all still present.

Mick Jones wrote:

Were you being sarcastic here too or...........?! 

Not trying to be a jerk to you Andrew but if you were being sincere then I'm confused by your lack of critical thinking. Horizontal roof cracks don't exist in a vacuum. 

Peace

Its not rocket science that a crack is a funnel for the watershed above or that they tend to seep long after the faces have dried out, some just want to be able to rationalize they're way around it so they can climb.

You're right, I didn't check the route below the roof crack. I was wrong. You can say I was just trying to rationalize my choice of climbing, however as I said in my post I chose not to climb that day. I also cancelled a day of climbing on Monday as well, just to be safe. I'm just saying not every single route in Red Rock should be treated exactly the same when it comes to rain. There are walls here that are totally fine to climb 24 hours after a rain if they receive a good wind and direct sun. And with those exact same conditions there are walls here I wouldn't climb on for 96 hours after rain due to their lack of wind and sun exposure. 

You can take one thing I've said and try and apply a label to me all you want. Honestly my main point was opening up a discussion. A discussion where someone, like myself, can say something like "hey, that route looks pretty overhanging and crack centric, maybe it's not a big deal to climb after a light drizzle the night before." And then someone with more information can come in and say, "actually, there are a bunch of crucial and fragile face holds below, maybe it is a big deal." And then I can reply with, "ah, I see. I'm wrong. Good point. Maybe not the best choice." And after that exchange we can still consider each other people who think critically instead of name calling. Critical thinking involves the ability to change your opinion when presented with better information, not simply being right the first time.

The problem unfortunately is that any time you advocate for people using information-based critical-thinking skills to make a decision about climbing in Red Rock after a rain, you will get wildly different results.  Some people will rationalize their behavior, some will have poor information, some [gasp] are not able to think critically at all, and sometimes a good decision will get made.

Unfortunately I think it is best for the official stance to be no climbing after a rain, anything less will allow stupidity to get its foot in the door.  

Darren in Vegas wrote:

The problem unfortunately is that any time you advocate for people using information-based critical-thinking skills to make a decision about climbing in Red Rock after a rain, you will get wildly different results.  Some people will rationalize their behavior, some will have poor information, some [gasp] are not able to think critically at all, and sometimes a good decision will get made.

Unfortunately I think it is best for the official stance to be no climbing after a rain, anything less will allow stupidity to get its foot in the door.  

Couldn't have said it any better, humans are human.

Andrew Yasso wrote:

However, I could see getting out in the early morning when it wasn't raining, or drizzling at most, and trying a crack route like that without any real concern. Look how overhanging it is. Look at how much crack climbing it includes. There isn't a single hold to break. If people are going out there and watching Katie climb, and then think it's okay for them to go climb anywhere else in Red Rock, then sure, I guess she's setting a bad example. I suppose however that no one was there but her and the photographer. Now it is posted on the internet, but the only people who know she did it on a rainy-ish day are you, me, and the smattering of other locals who are going to complain about it and actually draw way more attention to it than it would have received.

I agree that the climbing after rain is not a clear-cut, black and white issue, but gotta take issue with the "there aren't any holds to break" logic for cracks.  A friend of mine actually pulled three cams and broke his back after falling on an Indian Creek splitter, climbing on an overcast day after a heavy rainstorm.  Rain doesn't just weaken face holds, it can make cams less likely to hold.  And as has been mentioned upthread, cracks often are funneling drainages for precip.