bolt/hanger metallurgy question

First off, I know Eric. We've climbed together a couple of times and meet a few more. So I'm not some philanthropic climber, who donates to every cause.

Second, isn't it funny how all the climbers advocating the use of stainless steel, are the one who have replaced the plate steel  junk.

I can tell you first hand that replacing the 20 year old bolts, that I personally placed, was more work and zero the fun.

I think it totally makes sense that people who have had to replace the plated steel are advocating for stainless steel. I think that's fine. What I don't think is cool is people (not you) making assumptions and then using those assumptions to justify being an asshole. Remember rule #1. I also don't think it's cool to burn somebody at the stake for not using stainless, especially somebody you don't even know.

At this point in time in my life, I mostly use plated steel because that's what I can afford. I hope and expect that later in my life I will be able to afford stainless and will use it then. However, that isn't usually an option for me right now, and if that means committing to replacing those bolts at the end of their lifespan then that's a price I can afford to pay right now. 

It could be that placing plated bolts is a bad idea in any environment.  As has been previously mentioned, many plated bolts have rusted thoroughly in Red Rock within 20 years which is a very short timeframe.  That's in a low corrosive rock and in a very dry climate.  

Attached is a picture of a plated bolt from a desert limestone crag also in Las Vegas.  I am not certain of the exact age, but something

It seems like there are two types of developers out there:

- People who want to put up a route for the joy and adventure of the FA, with little regard for the people who may or may not come after them.

- People who put up routes with future climbers in mind, taking time to thoughtfully place bolts and finding satisfaction in seeing many ascents after the FA

If you're in the first camp, it probably makes sense to go with what ever hardware you can find and afford; the next party may even enjoy a similar "sense of adventure"  as you did on the FA when they pass your rickety bolts and sun-faded tats around trees that used to be alive.  On the other hand, if you're putting up a route you're hoping will achieve "classic" or trade route status, its in your interest to invest in the best possible hardware the first time around. Having placed and replaced bolts myself, i can assure you it is actually significantly easier to place a bolt than it is to replace it. 

Eli, John isn't being an asshole nor a dick. He's frustrated with the fact that he's putting in an enormous amount of time and money to repair bad bolts. Now after all the work he and countless others have done, there are still people placing steel hardware. I've been to a few locations that are considered arid and even there the bolts rust. Are some place less prone to rust than others? Yes but in these places stainless hardware will last forever.

There is no guarantee that you'll still be living in the same area in twenty years to replace the bolts that you placed. You may not even be climbing any more. 

I thought just like you when I placed all those steel bolts. They are cheap and twenty years is like so far away. When the time comes I'll just change them with new steel bolts and so on. Well twenty years come real quick and I'm replacing the bolts. Cursing myself for not using stainless to begin with because now it's work instead of fun. Plus I'm repairing and not climbing.

Just a thought but maybe equip less routes but do it properly with stainless. Pick the best lines to spend your hard earned money on. 

Excellent response rocknice2.  I couldn't agree more.

Climbtech SS Hanger  $2.69

Powers Stud SS, 3"      $2.25

Total SS                         $4.94

Climbtech PS Hanger $1.79

Powers 5pc  PS, 3"      $2.00

Total PS                        $3.79

Placing 100 bolts a year it only costs $125 more to do stainless.  Cost is a BS excuse these days.  If it means you can only put up 8 lines instead of 10, then so be it.
I placed my first bolts in 1990 with ZERO regard for longevity.  I'm trying to make amends for my past ignorance/cheapness by replacing 90's mank these days. It definitely is not as much fun as putting up new stuff.

Buy nice or buy twice.

Jason Todd wrote:

Excellent response rocknice2.  I couldn't agree more.

Climbtech SS Hanger  $2.69

Powers Stud SS, 3"      $2.25

Total SS                         $4.94

Climbtech PS Hanger $1.79

Powers 5pc  PS, 3"      $2.00

Total PS                        $3.79

Placing 100 bolts a year it only costs $125 more to do stainless.  Cost is a BS excuse these days.  If it means you can only put up 8 lines instead of 10, then so be it.
I placed my first bolts in 1990 with ZERO regard for longevity.  I'm trying to make amends for my past ignorance/cheapness by replacing 90's mank these days. It definitely is not as much fun as putting up new stuff.

Buy nice or buy twice.

I've been buying bolts at the local gear shop. They are about $4 for plated bolt + hanger vs $8 or $9 for stainless bolt + hanger. Could you tell me where you are getting these prices for $5 per stainless bolt + hanger?

eli poss wrote:

 I also don't think it's cool to burn somebody at the stake for not using stainless, especially somebody you don't even know.

The reason why John is a bit ticked is because he knows how this story ends 95% of the time. Many of us do. The standard story is that some dude comes around and bolts a route or two using carbon steel or some other equivalent material, the dude ends up leaving at some point (usually sooner rather than later) and then the few locals who actually take this stuff seriously are left to clean up the mess.

I have no idea if the OP is irresponsible and uncaring like the people in my story are or if he's a standup G-master who will do the right thing, but it's certainly a valid question to ask anytime someone wants to put up a route. Are they going to do it right and add something of value to the community, or are they going to create more work for those who maintain the area?

Fixe sometimes has sales on bolt/hanger combos. I've seen $5.25 for stainless 3/8 x 2.25 five piece with ss hanger. Not right for all situations, obviously. But they've often got 1/2" on sale too

Eli,

http://www.climbtechgear.com/climb-hard/

I think a good rule of thumb is this- if you have to ask then dont do it 

This chart pretty much sums it up.

I'm of the mind that there's no place for plated bolts in climbing except for very temporary uses. It's disappointing that manufacturers like Fixe continue to market PS hardware to climbers in this day and age. I'm currently in the process of replacing 20-30 year old plated bolts, some of which are majorly corroded to the point of being unsafe. This is in a location that is 500 miles from the coast and receives maybe 10 inches of annual precipitation. Hardly a corrosive environment. 

Eli, I find it interesting that you've repeatedly dismissed the opinions of those who actually have firsthand experience with how much time, effort, and money it takes to remove and replace old bolts, but have never once pulled and replaced a bolt. Perhaps you should go replace a few dozen bolts, making sure to reuse all of the old holes, and then maybe your opinion will have some weight behind it. 

Shelton Hatfield wrote:

Fixe sometimes has sales on bolt/hanger combos. I've seen $5.25 for stainless 3/8 x 2.25 five piece with ss hanger. Not right for all situations, obviously. But they've often got 1/2" on sale too

They have great sales.  I picked up a stash of 1/2" power bolts in stainless with matching stainless hangers for 8 bucks per recently.  That's a burly combo.

Their standard price for a 3/8" stainless hanger is 3 bucks.

I surf eBay for boxes of Hilti KB 3's in stainless.  Sometimes they can be had for around .50 per bolt if you find the right seller.  Boxes of 50 for 25 bucks.  Probably leftovers from a construction project.  Not my fav, but, powerstuds in stainless can be cheap too.

Of all the route developers that I'm aware of, very few go out and replace their hardware.  Its usually the burden of the local climbing organization.  And, its a pain in the ass to do.  Way more work than putting in a route in the first place, IMHO.

Folks use the excuse that its too expensive...but...there are low cost options.

I will retract my previous statements. I was under the impression that SS bolts were much more expensive than they really are. Apparently I just got ripped off and was paying almost twice as much as I could have had I done more research. Sorry guys.

However, my commitment to replaced the plated bolts I placed at the end of their lifetime stands.

Everyone is right. 

People are under-estimating the effort to put up such routes that require gardening and cleaning of loose/dangerous rock and holds etc. The longer the route the harder it exponentially gets. It doesn't sound like NRG rap bolting but more like newroutaineering and a multi-pitch nightmare to FA.

People are under-estimating the effort to replace bolts as well. My recommendation to the OP is to use no more than 3/8" bolts so that the re-bolting can use 11mm (maybe) or better, 1/2" bolts that allow a drill to easily remove bolt remnants (inevitable) in the original hole.

I also think the OP should be the one to rebolt his own route. That way he can gain some appreciation for the effort. He can gofundme the expenses and if it is worthy, people that care will pony up. If its not, it can rot.

Everyone in the thread has a valid point. They just got to put their own time, effort and money where their mouths are...and stop getting triggered by their own issues lol.

eli poss wrote:

You're assuming the OP won't take responsibility to re-bolt the climb if his bolts don't last. Don't make such assumptions, especially when you come across as such an asshole.

If I make a bad decision to bolt with plated steel when I should have gone with stainless you can bet I'll bite the bullet and clean up my mess. But there are places out there where you can get 50 years out of a plated bolt and in those places I won't be paying the extra $100 for stainless because I'm a poor ass college student. 

Eli,

You thought bolts only corroded in "very wet areas" but you were wrong.

You whined about stainless bolts being so much more expensive but you were wrong.  The difference for a 10-bolt route is about $15; you probably spend more than that in the bar on Friday night.

You've never rebolted a route, much less one that requires expensive travel, yet you think that your opinion on rebolting is valid.

At Twenty, you're in college which costs a lot, but claim you're poor. (Maybe you should ask Mom & Dad to give you an extra $15 for stainless?)  

You look down your nose at the "wealthy" but if you plan on staying poor all your life, why are you in college?  

You were 2-years-old the first time I broke a corroded bolt on a climb.   

You were 3-years-old when I rebolted my first ~15 routes and funded it myself.  At this point I've lost count of how many routes I've rebolted.

Have you noticed that you are the only one arguing for plated steel bolts?  Have you looked at the Access Fund's chart, which condemns plated bolts in every situation including deserts?   (Have you written to Brady and told him he's being a dick and an asshole too?)  

Have you bolted routes with plated bolts, Eli?  Are you planning on rebolting those?  Only children expect their parents to clean up their mess.  

eli poss wrote:

I will retract my previous statements. I was under the impression that SS bolts were much more expensive than they really are. Apparently I just got ripped off and was paying almost twice as much as I could have had I done more research. Sorry guys.

However, my commitment to replaced the plated bolts I placed at the end of their lifetime stands.

Eli, your enthusiasm is admirable but more admirable is your ability to learn and admit your mistakes. Bodes well.

John Byrnes wrote:

Eli,

You thought bolts only corroded in "very wet areas" but you were wrong.

You whined about stainless bolts being so much more expensive but you were wrong.  The difference for a 10-bolt route is about $15; you probably spend more than that in the bar on Friday night.

You've never rebolted a route, much less one that requires expensive travel, yet you think that your opinion on rebolting is valid.

At Twenty, you're in college which costs a lot, but claim you're poor. (Maybe you should ask Mom & Dad to give you an extra $15 for stainless?)  

You look down your nose at the "wealthy" but if you plan on staying poor all your life, why are you in college?  

You were 2-years-old the first time I broke a corroded bolt on a climb.   

You were 3-years-old when I rebolted my first ~15 routes and funded it myself.  At this point I've lost count of how many routes I've rebolted.

Have you noticed that you are the only one arguing for plated steel bolts?  Have you looked at the Access Fund's chart, which condemns plated bolts in every situation including deserts?   (Have you written to Brady and told him he's being a dick and an asshole too?)  

Have you bolted routes with plated bolts, Eli?  Are you planning on rebolting those?  Only children expect their parents to clean up their mess.  

I apologize for being misinformed. I've never rebolted a route, but I've pulled sleeves before so I think I have a general idea of how much work it is, which is a lot. I live a humble lifestyle because I'm aware of the large sums of money my parents already spend on my education, so I don't want to ask for any more than what I need to get by. 

I'm aware you've rebolted quite a few routes on your own dime and that's awesome and very altruistic of you. I have bolted routes with plated steel and if the route still exists when those bolts reach the end of their lifespan I'll be rebolting it myself. However, it's chossy by a lot of people's standards, and the route very well may end up falling off before those bolts go bad, judging by what I've seen at the cliff in the 4 years I've been here.

I already retracted my statements when I was informed that stainless hardware cost a lot less than I was paying for it. Have a nice day. 

eli poss wrote:

I apologize for being misinformed. I've never rebolted a route, but I've pulled sleeves before so I think I have a general idea of how much work it is, which is a lot. I live a humble lifestyle because I'm aware of the large sums of money my parents already spend on my education, so I don't want to ask for any more than what I need to get by. 

I'm aware you've rebolted quite a few routes on your own dime and that's awesome and very altruistic of you. I have bolted routes with plated steel and if the route still exists when those bolts reach the end of their lifespan I'll be rebolting it myself. However, it's chossy by a lot of people's standards, and the route very well may end up falling off before those bolts go bad, judging by what I've seen at the cliff in the 4 years I've been here.

I already retracted my statements when I was informed that stainless hardware cost a lot less than I was paying for it. Have a nice day. 

Eli,  This is not to call you out or anything, but just to give you more options for inexpensive stainless hardware.  I generally pay less for stainless than you pay for plated.  Just wait for Fixe to put their stainless hangers on sale for $2 each (you usually have to buy them in 100 piece batches, if you don't need a full 100, go in with some of your other buddies and split the batch up), then watch ebay for hilti KBs, again, you have to be patient, but can certainly find stainless bolts for less than $1 each, so a full stainless bolt costs less than $3.