Are static ropes safe for climbing?

Kyle Fowler wrote:What's longest lead fall anybodys lived to tell about? Mines like 15 lol

Kyle Fowler wrote:Found it alpinist.com/doc/web13s/fea… No relation to OP but I'm on MP on Saturday night so whatever

Michael Schneider wrote: A Tight Rope? yes, at the start, always a good Idea and I Step back off at about one foot up, to take all the stretch out of a Dynamic rope. Especially if I do not know the ropes properties,(stretch). But that said ~ a tight rope = AID.

\\Stepping back a foot doesn't even come close to taking all the stretch out of a dynamic rope. On a 25 meter climb there is 50 meters of rope out. Just sitting down on the rope will stretch it 5 meters.\\ 

I'm sorry if that was unclear, I step UP, far enough . . . (given my weight & that of my belayer, ) then to use the force of gravity to assist , I step, back down under tension, ( Asking my belayer, to take) to try to remove as much of the stretch (as I can) out of the system. 

If it's safe to use static rope to climb all theway from the roof of a house then that would be awesome

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Fall-factor-and-impact-force---theory?ActivityName=Rock-climbing#.WPy7EXYpC70

In theory, the higher the fall factor, the higher the forces generated. The concept of severity as a function of fall factor is useful only with a dynamic rope. The longer the rope, the more energy it can absorb. The fall factor model is rather simplistic, as it dœs not take into account important factors such as rope drag, type of belay device, belayer displacement... In the following chapters, we will see the impact of some of these factors.

Hmmm i am pretty sure fall factor is pointless once you start talking about a static rope since you are always basically taking a factor 2 fall (not really since even a static rope does stretch). Fall Factor is about how the rope absorbs the energy during a fall. A static rope does not absorb the energy so it doesn't matter how much rope is out compared to how you fall, you always take basically worst case fall.

As long as you keep the rope tight top roping on a static rope should be fine. It is still going to hurt alot more if you do fall even a short distance. Static rope would probably put you in a hospital from a lead fall before it would really break.

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web13s/feature-death-on-yosemite-muir-wall

When the block released, it cut Robison's dynamic lead rope a few feet below his tie-in point. With his primary rope severed, he continued to descend approximately 230 feet onto the end of his static rope clipped to the back of his harness. When Robison reached the end, the impact force was so great it caused immediate death. Static lines have an average elongation of just 5% and are not designed to take a lead fall. Dynamic ropes stretch with an average elongation of 30%.

Venery, with his partner now lifeless at the end of the static line, worried that the rock fall may have triggered more falling rock, killing or injuring additional climbers before hitting the ground. He immediately called 911 but cell reception was spotty. He yelled for help, and Search and Rescue (SAR) responded to his call.

Not 100% on this one but it sounds like the rope didn't break even after a 230ft fall on a static rope. If that isn't going to break the rope good luck doing it on any normal climbing. Given there isn't alot of details and I couldn't find any good test to show they don't break from falls etc because that isn't what they are designed for.

ViperScale wrote:

Hmmm i am pretty sure fall factor is pointless once you start talking about a static rope since you are always basically taking a factor 2 fall (not really since even a static rope does stretch). Fall Factor is about how the rope absorbs the energy during a fall. A static rope does not absorb the energy so it doesn't matter how much rope is out compared to how you fall, you always take basically worst case fall.

As long as you keep the rope tight top roping on a static rope should be fine. It is still going to hurt alot more if you do fall even a short distance. Static rope would probably put you in a hospital from a lead fall before it would really break.

Fall factor plays a role with all material types, including static rope, Dynemma, and even a piece of steel cable should you want to fall on one. Static ropes do stretch some and they do displace some energy. Even steel cable technically stretches some and it's a factor that's very important when engineers design suspension bridges. A factor 1 fall on a static rope will generate far more force than a factor 0.5 fall, and the same is the case with all types of material. Also, a small fall on a static rope will not hurt. I've taken falls on static rope with some slack in the system. It was pretty unremarkable. 

Kyle Fowler wrote: What's longest lead fall anybodys lived to tell about? Mines like 15 lol

I fell over 100 ft once, when I zippered a pitch. 

I have taken a bunch of 40ft falls trad climbing 

20 kN wrote:

Fall factor plays a role with all material types, including static rope, Dynemma, and even a piece of steel cable should you want to fall on one. Static ropes do stretch some and they do displace some energy. Even steel cable technically stretches some and it's a factor that's very important when engineers design suspension bridges. A factor 1 fall on a static rope will generate far more force than a factor 0.5 fall, and the same is the case with all types of material. Also, a small fall on a static rope will not hurt. I've taken falls on static rope with some slack in the system. It was pretty unremarkable. 

Sure it does help but the difference is extremely low. A static rope unlike its name is not really static it stretches around 5% while a dynamic rope stretches like up to 30%. Taking a 60ft fall 5% is 3ft and 30% is 18ft. That is a huge difference 3ft is almost nothing compared to 18ft of stretch in the fall which is why they say the entire factor 2 fall thing is kinda meaningless when talking about static ropes.

Think about it falling 60ft with factor 2 fall on a static rope vs factor 1 fall means the difference in like 3ft of stretch isn't much when you compare it to a dynamic rope and 18ft of stretch.

Static ropes are safe for climbing in the same sense razor blades are safe as children's toys.

Static ropes are rated on breaking strength. https://www.rei.com/product/472262/bluewater-assaultline-static-rope-716-x-150 rated to break at 32 kN it isn't going to break on you but the force it impacts on you from a big fall is going to cause major harm or kill you. 

Dynamic ropes are rated on how much force they will put onto the user and how many falls it can take before breaking. https://www.rei.com/product/100524/edelrid-boa-eco-98mm-non-dry-rope rated to put 8.8 kN onto the user in I think 1.7 factor fall. It is also rated to take 7 falls back to back before it will break (it doesn't mean it will only take 7 falls but if it takes 7 falls without giving the rope time to rest it will break)

Your not going to likely break either rope in a single fall but where a dynamic rope puts 8.8 kN into the body on a fall and a static is likely to put 15+ kN into a lead fall. You will die from a static rope fall long before the rope will break at 32 kN.

ViperScale wrote:

Hmmm i am pretty sure fall factor is pointless once you start talking about a static rope since you are always basically taking a factor 2 fall (not really since even a static rope does stretch). Fall Factor is about how the rope absorbs the energy during a fall. A static rope does not absorb the energy so it doesn't matter how much rope is out compared to how you fall, you always take basically worst case fall.

Fall factor is still relevant for falls on static rope, for the simple reason that FF is length of the fall / length of rope out.  You are not "always taking a factor 2 fall".  That's nonsense.

There are other factors that help determine impact force: climber weight, friction against the rock, modulus of the rope, compliance within the belay.  Static rope is less stretchy and that gives rise to greater impact force.  It's a significant difference compared to falling on a dynamic rope, but by no means does it render fall factor "pointless".

Gunkiemike wrote:

 

Fall factor is still relevant for falls on static rope, for the simple reason that FF is length of the fall / length of rope out.  You are not "always taking a factor 2 fall".  That's nonsense.

There are other factors that help determine impact force: climber weight, friction against the rock, modulus of the rope, compliance within the belay.  Static rope is less stretchy and that gives rise to greater impact force.  It's a significant difference compared to falling on a dynamic rope, but by no means does it render fall factor "pointless".

The only thing fall factor matters for is how much stretch the rope is letting the force of the fall out with. The more rope out the more that 30% stretch can take away fall force. However when you are talking about 5% it makes very little difference to the point it isn't likely to make a difference in the fall force that is put out.

Taking a lead fall on a static rope you can pretty much assume is like always taking a factor 2 or harder fall on a dynamic rope. You don't really have to worry about the static rope breaking but you have to worry about the force being put on the body.

megan79 wrote: Hi MP, I've been climbing for a few months and I'm learning how to top rope with my friend who is also new. Today we saw a girl and a guy toproping with a static rope. I only know it was static rope because when I saw their rope it didn't look like a climbing rope and when I asked them about it he said it was a static rope. I thought there was a rule against this? Everything I've read says don't use a static rope for climbing. Thanks.

Static lines for top roping only.  Guide Schools use them.  Cheaper, low load stretch

Basically use a dynamic rope when climbing, but its "okay" to use a static rope for top rope.

ViperScale wrote:

The only thing fall factor matters for is how much stretch the rope is letting the force of the fall out with.... ...However when you are talking about 5% it makes very little difference to the point it isn't likely to make a difference in the fall force that is put out.

The maximum elongation of a material does not have any correlation with the applicability of fall factor as it relates to impact force. If I took a steel cable and drop tested it with an 80kg weight in a UIAA-spec tower using every fall factor ranging from 0.1 all the way up to 2.0, I would see a steady increase in impact force all the way through the chart with the impact force at FF 2.0 being several times higher than at 0.5 and lower. If I did the same on static rope, I would see the same results. Same with dynamic rope, Dyneema or any other material for that matter. A higher fall factor is typically going to result in higher forces regardless of what the material is made out of, whether it be a HTP static rope or a giant rubber band encased in bunny feathers and unicorn dust.

Also, a lead fall on static rope is not "always equivalent to a factor 2 fall on dynamic rope". It depends on what type of static rope and the fall factor. EN1891 low stretch canyoneering ropes are certified for and designed to stop fall factors of 0.3FF at a maximum impact force of 6kN, whereas true static rope, and especially HTP static, are not designed to stop lead falls and will produce very high impact forces. However, how high again depends on several factors including FF and material type, but it's not automatically going to be equivalent to FF2 on a dynamic rope.

Here is an example: http://www.edelweiss-ropes.com/activities/canyoning/canyon-9-6mm.html

"Diameter                9,6 mm                  

  Breaking strength                21 kN                   

 Strength with figure of 8 knot                14 kN                    

Number of falls factor 1                12                    

Impact force factor 0,3                4,2 kN "

Daryl Tweed wrote:

If it's safe to use static rope to climb all theway from the roof of a house then that would be awesome

You guys realize this dude resurrected this year old thread with this stupid comment and you all jumped right in. Don't you? JB ;)

PS Yes Daryl, that WOULD be awesome, all the way from the roof of a house................ ;)