Tips for Denali

Socks:

lorpennorthamerica.com/TEPAP

Used with Baruntse's

I skied Mt. Logan in 2002, Denali in 2003, 05 and 2010.
Tried skiing Logan in Scarpa plastic climbing boots- bad plan.
Summited Denali in 2003 with Scarpa Denali ski boots- not the best climbing boot. Plenty warm with Intuition liners but not flexible enough. even did some water ice climbing.
We had planned to climb the Cassin, but the whole mountain was blue ice in mid May.
In 2005 brought both climbing shells and ski shells- shared same Intuition liners. My partner bailed at 11k, and I continued, went up upper west rib in mid may solo. Started at 4am clear, no wind at 40-. Quite a bit of blue ice 2 ice tool climbing, returned to 14k at 4am for a 24 hr day.( with a hour at 17k melting snow for a hot drink)
2010, brought 2 pair boots again ( we keep trying to get on the Cassin, hence the climbing boots)
this time had the red Scarpa plastic shells- way better then blacks, and Mountain Hardware overboots- like everyone says these are great for wearing down booties in around camp.
Each trip we skied a bunch from around 14k, usually very icy on way in and deep snow on the way out.
Sounds like you are planning on climbing boots, but want to ski, not much fun, but better then snowshoeing.If not plastics with Intuition liners- make sure you have overboots- the 40- brand
You will want ski crampons and 2 whippets for early season. Some ice screws, ice tools
aluminum shovel is ok- D handle is best, and one that extends long, you spend a lot of time shoveling
Snow saw a must
XGK for melting snow, Dragonfly if you want to cook on the stove. We also brought the Outback oven set up, but not the giant frying pan, just a smaller no-stick pan, and like others said the cozy part is good for keeping in warmth with melting snow too- but watch out for it seems to snuff out the flame- lack of oxygen, also overheats boils over. Don't kill yourselves running stove in tent- it happened to 2 guys at 14k. We ran it in the vestibule at 17k and in the Megamid everywhere lower.
40- makes water bottle neoprene covers that work with MSR fuel bottles- nice since that is the coldest thing you will touch.
need I say Pee bottle?
We had 2 tents- first light BD for Cassin again, used at 17k, while leaving our 3 person MH tent set up at 14k- nice to just crawl into it when returning. I think the park service frowns apon this, but you would lose your snow walls too.
It is nice to have a swivel for the sled- but they always become a huge mess anyway.
we used stuff sacks and snow stakes placed as deadmen for the tent. It is almost impossible to not dice up the sacks when digging out- if they get frozen hard. I think it's worth having the big wide snow stakes.
A giant nylon bag ( REI has them for sleeping bag storage) for collecting snow.
I had lots of folks giving me food and fuel- like full gallons.
I like to divide the food per person into 5 day bags- was 6 bags for me, in the past tried to keep these under 10 pounds, last trip they were 12 pounds each- adds up ( we double carried up the whole way)
The extra weight is stuff like salami, smoked salmon, cheese, butter, nuts, dried fruit.
I made most of our meals, with some mtn house too.
we always had real coffee
I agree with others on foam pad . MEC makes a thick yellow one- the best, thermarest and any with air feel cold, most of the time I would place foam pad on top of thermarest.
My last 2 trips I was fine with Patagonia Das Parka.
I have not used my 8,000m parka and pants since 2003
I have a 25- Feathered friends bag- got used, otherwise these are like $1,000.
I think most people would want a -40 bag, I tend to be warm.

Thanks Geoff for the time spent sharing your wisdom. I will be in Scarpa F3 ski boots (AT boot with bellows). Intuition liners. 40below overboots. They've been my ice climbing boots the last few years and work great for climbing and skiing. Very minimal side-to-side ankle flexion, though.

We'll see what the snow is like this spring. Would like to be able to spend most of my time on skis; still debating timing. Got the permit, but haven't bought plane tickets yet. TAT seems the way to go, and Go Purple from Anchorage.

The problem with ski boots is having them loose enough for climbing and still fitting in overboots. When I would have all upper buckles loose they would not fit in 40- overboots, but they did work in my Mtn. Hardware overboots. My Scarpa ski boots climb water ice ok- however bulky, the problem is low angle terrain. We did a winter ascent of Raineer a while back and were sking, hoped to ski off summit, but too icy. It was pretty nasty cramponing up on low angle slopes in the ski boots. I also remember not liking summit day on Denali in 03 in my ski boots.
Try getting out on Raineer to test out systems
In 2002 we flew with Mckinley Air, it was a 2 woman operation, they had a yurt at the runway for a office. When we were high on the mountain we heard an explosion and when returning to 14k after summiting we got the news from the rangers that the crash we heard was our pilot, we flew out with TAT. Really sad about our pilot and the passengers. We have been flying with TAT ever since. Many teams were backed up waiting for a weather break in 2010 when we were leaving, nobody was flying and the only plane that flew for several days was Paul Roderick because he was the only one with flying with instrumentation. I would guess they all have this now. Lisa Roderick is the ATC, maybe someone said this here already- introduce yourself and bring her something special, her husband Mark Westman will likely be climbing ranger at 14k.
If you volunteer to dig toilet at 14k the rangers will give you a BBQ dinner.
The skiing on slopes above 14k both toward fixed lines and west rib was the best of our trip.
Besides my solo in a day from 14k and back we always stayed at 17k. Even if you are really fit it is a huge day to go from 14k to summit. Also responding to someones suggestion for no harness above 14k, the most dangerous slope is the one going to Denali Pass above 17k. The guides and rangers leave a string of pickets up this, if conditions are icy it is nice to simul climb on a rope and even place some of your own pickets. Once again I did this as a down climb and was the only one on the upper mountain above 17k that night I did the upper west rib solo, but I had 2 ice tools and used them both.

Just throwing it out there. Looking for a couple guys to do the west rib or west butt. My plans/ partners have fallen through for May 2017 already. Hit me up if your interested or have room in your group.

Thanks!

Random Gear Thoughts:

• * Do yourself a favor and bring a Crazy Creek chair for the countless hours you'll spend in your tent. I went with the long-back version and it was the best gear decision I made going into the trip. You could also bring that and eliminate the Z-lite pad.
• * Small AM/FM radio - Sony ICF-S10MK2 or similar.
• * Whatever your sock system, bring 3 sets, two rotate every other day and save one for summit day. Some people opt to also bring a single pair of "sleep" socks, but with the tip below, you'll always have dry feet, so no need.
• * Small travel size Degree anti-perspirant for your feet. Apply every morning and night and you will never have sweaty/wet feet. Trust me on this. Nobody up there uses vapor barrier socks, you'll get trench foot.
• * Everyone in your party should bring a Fair share mug. When you are done eating, poor some hot water in it, close the lid, swish, then drink it down. Extra calories, plus a clean mug. Don't bother with the 40 Below Fairshare mug insulator, as you will be inhaling food quickly anyway.
• * Bring one medium stuff sack to keep your Fairshare mug, spoon, and cup in. Loosing your spoon would suck. And also, bring a titanium spoon, or a really solid lexan, must be long handled. DO NOT bring light my fire plastic sporks, they will break.
• * Paris sleds if possible
• * Sled Bag - I was constantly amazed at how ridiculously heavy and rugged most climbers sled bags were. I used this bag with great success and it was a fraction of the weight of other bags recommended here: Outdoor Products Deluxe Duffle
• * Get 40 Below bottle boots and the Hunersdorf bottles from 40 Below. I brought two 1.5L bottles. The OR insulated boots I saw others use always had freezing problems with the zipper. For your mug you can get a .5L Nalgene in combination with a 40 below .5L bottle boot. You can then keep hot liquids in your pocket. That gives you 3.5L capacity.
• * Get the biggest piss bottle you can find. I brought the 96oz collapsible Nalgene and it worked great. Having to get up to piss outside when its storming because your bottle is full sucks.
• * No need to bring sponges or anything else like that. The air is so dry and it gets so hot in your tent that things dry very easily.
• * Bring a buff for certain. Many uses. Two is ideal and you can use that as your face mask up high and an extra one weighs nothing.
• * Bring blue foam and duct tape to cover your ice axe head or you will freeze your fingers up high
• * Wet Wipes: Bring enough for a mountain shower every other day.
• * A large ziploc bag that you can use as a tent trash bag for wrappers and misc paper/trash. Really key.
• * Games: small travel games to keep you sane.
• * Disc frisbee so you and your buddies can play golf with your ski poles
• * White long sleeve base layer with a hood for super hot days down low. You can thank me afterwards. Colombia makes a white UV rated hooded dry fit type shirt that would work really well.
• * Make sure you can wear all your layers at once. No extra layers.
• * Small tubes of oxide type sunscreen work better than one big tube.

Cheese and meat? What kinds and how to best package?

depends on your preference, I like to bring smoked salmon, hard salami and extra sharp cheddar. they keep well and are fine after being frozen. I vacuum sealed 8oz bags of each. When I ordered bulk freeze dried food I tried some ham and burger meat- these were pretty gross with the ham being better in soup or to supplement the mtn. house.

i found "alaska dave" on craigslist a few years ago and he has picked me up from the airport, taken me to the store and then on to Talkeetna a few times.

personal service in an old janky van

Tried to ski Messner in late May 2013 and got shut down by ice and sastrugi conditions that killed a team right before we arrived. Some Spanish guy did successfully ski the West Butt (most of it anyhow) by making survival turns all the way down. Looked harrowing.

We skied between 17 and 14 camp every day and had tons of amazing powder. Went as high as we could up Orient and Messner and got big ski descents, but no real way to ski higher than about 16.5k with conditions as they were.

Everyone said that the Messner and other routes didn't really get skied til Late June through July.

Benefits: We had an amazing descent with sleds from 14 camp to 7k basecamp in really good snow. Took us about 2 hours!! the trick is keeping your sled from barrelling. Actually found more speed helped....mostly.

Aaron Miller wrote:the trick is keeping your sled from barrelling. Actually found more speed helped....mostly.

Summit pack?  And... Does West Rib require two tools?  One axe and one tool?  

Summit pack as in bring a different one or summit pack as in what to put inside?

My suggestion is to look at some case studies and decide what it means to you to be properly prepared for realistic scenarios on a summit bid. This may inform your decision about packs. Even so do you really want to haul another pack all the way up there just for that?

2 toolz or axe and tool... For that route (rib) its not cut and dried. It depends on the conditions and on the climber. Some people are comfortable on icy terrain with only 1 tool (and axe) and some aren't. The route condition can also vary a lot. Of course you can just go 2 tools to be safe but then you are hauling an extra tool an awful long way and would be nice just to leave it behind! Only you can look deep into your soul and find the answer you seek. You will only have yourself to curse if you find you have chosen poorly!    

Stiles wrote:

Summit pack?  And... Does West Rib require two tools?  One axe and one tool?  

For a "summit pack", I got a pack that I could use as a sleeping bag stuff sack.  Its light, has thin shoulder and waist straps that can be used to compress a sleeping bag, and big enough for carrying on summit day.  I had an ice ax loop sewn on to carry a spare tool.

If were me on the Rib, I'd be using an ice ax and a hammer at about the same length.  But, that's what I'd be comfortable with.  I know some folks might only want/need one ice ax, but, some might want a pair of ice tools.  Personal preference based on a bit of experience on similar terrain.

My guess is your asking about two tools based on lack of experience?  Maybe the West Rib would be a better option after "some" experience?

Brian in SLC wrote: the trick is keeping your sled from barrelling. Actually found more speed helped....mostly. I just turned mine upside down and straightlined... Amazing how quick you can descend, even with a sled, whilst on skis. Maybe almost feel sorry for the snowshoers/booters. Almost....ha ha.

I am going to be wishing I knew how to ski soon haha. 

Just a general question, doing the west buttress with 2 other climbers and planning to bring the following:

2 shovels

1 snow saw

1 probe

1 3 man tent

1 single person tent

2 stoves

1 8mm rope 

Would you guys change the quantity for those items? Also, for 3 people how big of a pot should we bring?.

Anyone have any tips for digging out dead man anchors when everything freezes over? That has always been the most annoying/dreadful part for me lol 

Many things have been said, but here are some more random thoughts:

*PVC pipes for the sleds are clutch. In 2012, some had them, and some didn't - I'm not sure how things are now.

*Ice-climbing umbilicals would be nice if you can clip the head of your axe through the foam - makes it easy to switch hands without fumbling in big mitts or worrying about dropping the axe, especially on the ridge.

*You can bring a single paperback and trade them around. Favorites were lighthearted. Dostoevsky is no more delectable on the third day of being snowed in at 14k than in a comfortable apartment at sea level.

*Those stupid-looking nose-shield things are important.

*Some people swear by mole skin on the cheeks for summit day. Consider hand-warmers.

*If you bring ski goggles and glacier glasses, make sure that the ski goggles are dark enough, or that you can wear both at once. My goggles were 66% or something, and they were not sufficient on their own, even in bad weather.

*My partner had a BD Whippet; he used it even when not skiing. He loved it, and I was jealous.

*Re: headlamps. For late-May through mid-June, they are not necessary; there is enough light to read in the tent at 2am. One of the teams suggested we throw a party using the strobe function - I can't imagine using them for anything else in June. I don't know about earlier May.

*Some people, apparently, are completely ravenous for the calories they need. Some aren't. If you've been up high before, then you sort of know what you're capable of eating. If you haven't, then I think the closest approximation for me is imagining what I would be willing to eat immediately after finishing a marathon or a super hard day, before the hunger sets in. Bringing high-fat food is only weight-efficient insofar as you're able to stomach it. I found pre-meal mint tea helpful, and I imagine ginger would be good as well.

*Consider whether you want to go the acetazolamide route, or have dexamethasone for emergencies (talk to a doctor, etc). See http://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMcp1214870, tables 3 & 4. Anti-nausea drugs can be indicated as well (ondansetron).

*Later in the season, you can often get cast-offs at 14k as earlier parties descend (food, fuel). I'm not sure if you can count on this earlier in the season.

*It sort of goes without saying that decision-making procedures, levels of acceptable risk, goals, commitment, etc., are great conversations to have before getting to the mountain (it seems that several parties don't really have them, or don't have them in earnest). Some shuffling has been known to occur as more is revealed.

*Also goes without saying that you want to be solid on your crevasse rescue setup and have the gear you need (again, I don't mean to insult you; some parties don't prepare much in this way), even on skis.

*If you stay on the Butt, I think it's a much nicer experience if you embrace the crowded mountain, although it's probably less severe early-season. Making friends, meeting people you've only read about before, and summiting with your dozen new besties is so much better than grumbling about the 100s of people ruining your wilderness experience.

Stay safe and enjoy! Godspeed!

Ibra Cetindemir wrote:

I am going to be wishing I knew how to ski soon haha. 

Just a general question, doing the west buttress with 2 other climbers and planning to bring the following:

1 8mm rope 

Just out of curiosity, what is the 1 - 8mm rope you are planning on bringing? Is this your primary glacier travel rope?

Jaime Andersen wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what is the 1 - 8mm rope you are planning on bringing? Is this your primary glacier travel rope?

Its the Mammut Mammut Phoenix Superdry Rope. I've used it on Rainier a few times. I also have a 9.7 blue water rope, cant remember the exact name. 

Ibra Cetindemir wrote:

Its the Mammut Mammut Phoenix Superdry Rope. I've used it on Rainier a few times. I also have a 9.7 blue water rope, cant remember the exact name. 

Just curious. The Phoenix, If I recall correctly, is a half or twin rope. Are you using it single as a glacier travel rope? What route? Any technical objectives for your time in the AK Range? Honestly, if I were to do just a standard W BUTT or even RIB I wouldn't use any dynamic rope, and certainly not an 8mm dynamic. I know, lots of people will disagree. 

In reality, you absolutely don't require what a dynamic rope provides, and in reality, for crevasse falls and rescue, low-stretch is your friend. 8mm dynamic stretches, is hard to pull on when wet and icy, and doesn't always stand up to abuse the best. There are some good low-stretch (i.e. static) options that are way more friendly for glacier travel. 

That being said, if you have some side objectives that involve rock, alpine, ice, etc, you have to take that into consideration. Just something else to think about. 

Have a blast. Keep the fingers crossed for some additional snow in the range as we enter May!