Micronut placements?

climbing friend tits,

your advice is as per usual most eloquent, advisable, and spot on!

do not forget that if you "have micronuts" you must be utilizing even more care and strategery with your "placements," and hopefully you are not overcome with passion of moment and it is ending too soon.

DMM Peenuts and the #1 is slightly smaller than a dime and the #4 is still the size of a penny. 4kN is better than nothing if you need a placement, maybe help the elvis leg slow down. Sure it won't hold a 30ft fall but if you are at a crux and need it to hold a 5ft fall it would probably do the job. That and they weight nothing so why not carry them.

Peenut 1 - 4kN

Peenut 2 - 5kN

Peenut 3 - 5kN

Peenut 4 - 8kN

Peenut 5 - 8kN

I agree even if you have years of experience climbing and are just starting trad you probably want some practice before jumping on stuff that really needs micronuts.

ViperScale wrote:

DMM Peenuts and the #1 is slightly smaller than a dime and the #4 is still the size of a penny. 4kN is better than nothing if you need a placement, maybe help the elvis leg slow down. Sure it won't hold a 30ft fall but if you are at a crux and need it to hold a 5ft fall it would probably do the job. That and they weight nothing so why not carry them.

Peenut 1 - 4kN

Peenut 2 - 5kN

Peenut 3 - 5kN

Peenut 4 - 8kN

Peenut 5 - 8kN

I agree even if you have years of experience climbing and are just starting trad you probably want some practice before jumping on stuff that really needs micronuts.

That's pretty much the way I see it. I don't carry the really small aid rated pieces. 4kN is the smallest I have. And they are so light it makes sense to have them on me just in case. I'm only leading up to moderate rated stuff right now so they are rarely are needed. Every once in a while though, there is a place for one of these that I'm happy I racked them. 

rgold wrote:

patto wrote:

I think you're both saying the same thing really. Patto is saying they can be excellent up to their rated strength. Rgold keeps them in that range by adopting the mindset of "I basically treat small gear as at best good until it gets below my foot level.  Once my feet are above a small placement, I think it best to climb as if that placement wasn't there at all."

In reply to all of the recent posts, I'll quote myself from another, more infamous thread:

"Ignorance is not bliss, it's stupidity".

The very first thing I learned was the stupidly simple "advanced" self rescue technique of ascending a rope with prussik Purcell's.That, hooked me. But, it also taught me some really simple things that can be very widely applied.

Same here. Beginner only means.. beginner. Less time and experience, not less interest, potential, or willingness to learn. 

The little bits and pieces that stick, are often buried deep in these threads, and there is no knowing what tiny bit is the one that will save someone's bacon down the road.

That long preamble out of my system, several points come to mind, regarding my pitiful noobness and these micros:

First, they are very small. Duh. But, if my eyes learn to see these sizes quickly, so much the better for all of the sizes.

Second, there's  been a few wee hints, elsewhere, that I should consider anchoring my ancient shrinking self, if I am belaying a refrigerator. These dinky bits can help with that.

Third, my climbing skills. The larger small pieces might be just the two second cheat I need to get that extra jump to the out of reach anchors. Don't need to hold a whip, just be a hand hold for a moment.

And, lastly, these are part of a huge kindness someone paid me. And my first gear, because of that kindness. Maybe you'd sell that, but not me. That encouragement has a pretty large value, as does the friendship of people I've not even met . What price should we place on those brassies then?

Best, Helen

Jim Titt wrote:

I´m well aware of what small nut´s and RP´s can do, I´ve been climbing trad for 50 years. My answer was in the context of a beginners forum to someone who´s never placed a nut in anger, never lead a trad route and struggles on 5.6. Advising her to start learning to place protection by building nests of micro-nuts, placing opposed pieces used tensioned Garda hitches and so on is completely bonkers. Particularly when it seems at least part of her circle of acquantances appear to be less than competent to give her reliable advice on the basics of climbing safety and gear placements.

Speaking for myself, the discussion verged from specific beginner advice to general musings about using small gear and keeping gear from lifting.  This is the heartbreak of thread drift, which is neither new nor unusual.  Viewed in the context of beginner advice, it may well be too much too soon, but on the other hand, I've never quite seen the purpose in withholding information on the grounds that it is too advanced for a lowly beginner to grasp.  When I was learning, I eagerly devoured all the information available, even if it had to do with things I hardly understood and could barely imagine doing.  My personal experience is that I "grew into" that information, and knowing it was not in any way harmful before I was truly capable of using it.  Perhaps it is wrong to assume others will have the same experience, but in that case I'm not at all sure what types of advice I should edit out for fear of leading beginners astray.

That said, I don't think it is quite right to lump together nesting brass nuts, which is arguably for advanced applications, and keeping nuts from lifting, which is as important for beginners---maybe even more important---as it is for everyone else.  The usual advice to use a cam, besides not always being applicable, is based on the questionable assumption that a cam that rotates, say,150 degrees, is going to stay in.  This uncertainty especially true for the smaller cam sizes, which won't tolerate much alteration in their placements.  In view of all this, I think that knowing a way to hold nuts and cams down if an upward directional can be slotted, a way that is always done in the same fashion,  that can be done with one hand, and that always results in a high level of tension is not at all a topic for experts only.  Perhaps the Garda hitch looks "advanced," and indeed I've found very few "expert" climbers who know about using it for this application, but in fact it is simple, fast, and more effective for the purpose than anything else I've seen in 60 years of trad climbing.

Helen asked for pictures, which I have yet to produce, as it turns out I have a life outside these forums.  When I get a chance, I'll post them as a separate topic so as not to appear guilty of luring neophytes into dangerous waters.

rgold wrote:

rgold wrote:

3. The two pieces are definitely connected---that's the whole point---the bottom piece is supposed to be holding the top piece down!

As for what it all looks like, I'll take some pics and get back...

Follow-up coming?

Best, Helen

rgold wrote:

Speaking for myself, the discussion verged from specific beginner advice to general musings about using small gear and keeping gear from lifting.  This is the heartbreak of thread drift, which is neither new nor unusual.  Viewed in the context of beginner advice, it may well be too much too soon, but on the other hand, I've never quite seen the purpose in withholding information on the grounds that it is too advanced for a lowly beginner to grasp.  When I was learning, I eagerly devoured all the information available, even if it had to do with things I hardly understood and could barely imagine doing.  My personal experience is that I "grew into" that information, and knowing it was not in any way harmful before I was truly capable of using it.  Perhaps it is wrong to assume others will have the same experience, but in that case I'm not at all sure what types of advice I should edit out for fear of leading beginners astray.

Fortunately when we started climbing the amount of information was minimal and the amount of equipment available even less so the chances of losing track of the essentials was unlikely to get lost in a technical overload.  From my experience instructing the hardest thing to teach novices is how to judge where and when to place gear, not how to. Placing protection has always been a balance between the potential benefits if the climber falls and the cost in effort and loss of focus. As micro-nuts are harder to place well and in general more unreliable in their placements setting off on a beginners route without having "grown" into the basics with a rack which consists primarily of tiny pieces and a jumble of information regarding equalising nests of micro-nuts and so on doesn´t strike me as a good grounding in becoming a competent trad leader. A set of hexes and learning to place them well would be of more benefit to the OP than a dozen micro-nuts.

Jim Titt wrote:

Fortunately when we started climbing the amount of information was minimal and the amount of equipment available even less so the chances of losing track of the essentials was unlikely to get lost in a technical overload.  From my experience instructing the hardest thing to teach novices is how to judge where and when to place gear, not how to. Placing protection has always been a balance between the potential benefits if the climber falls and the cost in effort and loss of focus. As micro-nuts are harder to place well and in general more unreliable in their placements setting off on a beginners route without having "grown" into the basics with a rack which consists primarily of tiny pieces and a jumble of information regarding equalising nests of micro-nuts and so on doesn´t strike me as a good grounding in becoming a competent trad leader. A set of hexes and learning to place them well would be of more benefit to the OP than a dozen micro-nuts.

Well, I can't say I disagree, but there's also room for all the approaches.

I'm a rarity in climbing, a nonlinear thinker. Throw a jumble of stuff in, and, after the squirrels root around in retrieval mode for awhile, an answer will surface from the depths. I am also very, very visual, so that further complicates things.

FWIW, in a long list of links on belay devices and belaying a friend sent me, I greatly enjoyed unpublished (but very clearly written and hugely interesting) research by you, Mr. Titt. Your contributions are an important part of my madhouse brain's filing system!

Best, Helen

Edit to add: yes! to hexes. :-)

And hip belays, and biner blocks, and prussik hitches.....

To do the first ascent of this:-

600m,18 pitches. 5.10a/b

Jim Titt wrote:

I´m well aware of what small nut´s and RP´s can do, I´ve been climbing trad for 50 years. My answer was in the context of a beginners forum to someone who´s never placed a nut in anger, never lead a trad route and struggles on 5.6. Advising her to start learning to place protection by building nests of micro-nuts, placing opposed pieces used tensioned Garda hitches and so on is completely bonkers. Particularly when it seems at least part of her circle of acquantances appear to be less than competent to give her reliable advice on the basics of climbing safety and gear placements.

If that's the intent, then I agree.

Jim Titt wrote:

To do the first ascent of this:-

600m,18 pitches. 5.10a/b

Wow, what's that? Looks amazing! (Pretty sure I'd bring three times the rack though, you're ahead of me in the minimalist department for sure!)

Jim Titt wrote:

To do the first ascent of this:-

600m,18 pitches. 5.10a/b

Just because you lived doesn't mean you did it safely =/ I mean people free solo all kinds of big walls with no gear and live. Doesn't mean it was a safe / smart way to do it!

I onsighted a 60ft route with 1 X4 0.2 (looking at the placement on the way down it would not have held a fall, i kinda knew it but just put it in for the heck of it) and 1 small hex that was placed at 20ft and i lived... however i basiclly free soloed it and would not recomend doing it that way.

ViperScale wrote:

I onsighted a 60ft route with 1 X4 0.2 (looking at the placement on the way down it would not have held a fall, i kinda knew it but just put it in for the heck of it) and 1 small hex that was placed at 20ft and i lived... however i basiclly free soloed it and would not recomend doing it that way.

Sorry viper, it wasn't free solo if you had a belay ;)

The rack photo was intended to show how once you have gained enough experience and know the rock type in your area you can safely reduce the amount of gear you carry, so long as each piece is really doing it´s job then it´s plenty. Another area and I´d have been carrying cams to 3 and a set of offsets as well for example. It sure would need to be a specialised rock type before I had 12 micronuts on my rack though! The photo is rather cheating in that we were bolting the belays as we went so could drop another half-set of nuts and a few cams off what we were carrying.

Hexes and beginners is difficult, they are cheap and teach good placement skills but on the other hand cams are mostly better but make people lazy, I still try to teach people to use them just because they will learn more about reading the rock for good placements which will stay with them for the rest of their career but personally I haven´t carried any for decades.

Jim, what's the name of the peak and route in the picture?