Half rope alternate clip technique with brake assisted belay device?

You can use any of the assisted-locking devices with half ropes, its just that the Alpine Up works better (and more naturally) then any of the others.  The problem with the others is that the brake hand is tied up levering the device away from the body for fast slack-pumping, so the non-brake hand has to manage all the rope motions.  This means pulling one strand in from below the brake hand and then switching to the other side of the device to pump the other strand out.  It is doable, but kinda frantic.  The Alpine Up doesn't require the belayer to activate unlocking and so the hands are as free as they would be with an ATC.  It is also true, according to Jim Titt's tests, that the Alpine Up provides higher braking power in case of very severe fall impacts.  On the downside, Jim has found that under severe conditions the Alpine Up might damage the sheath.

I've argued with others about the perceived complexity of the Alpine Up and have not changed anyone's mind.  It threads and is used like an ATC (unlke the other gadgets, that require levering the device away from the harness).  Like the other assisted lockers, there are two possible threading directions and one of them does not provide any locking.  Unlike the other devices, the Alpine Up has a cut-out on the side that will provide extra friction for lowering if you have accidentally threaded it wrong.  The Alpine Up has an extra hole which allows it to be used in a non-assisted mode.  You don't get a lot of friction from this, so I'd advise experimenting in a safe environment to understand the behavior.   

One of several downsides of the other devices is that they weren't designed to work with a specific carabiner and their performance varies considerably depending on what carabiner is chosed.  The Alpine Up comes with a carabiner.  Use it.

Joe mentions just learning one's craft and using an ATC, something I've done and am sympathetic to.  But I find I can manage two ropes better if I belay palm up, and the palm-up brake hand position doesn't work as well as palm-down with an ordinary ATC.  With the Alpine Up, I can belay palm up and still get bood braking performance.  (I should add that I trained myself to brake with both hands while belaying palm up with an ATC, and can still do this for extreme loads with the Alpine Up.)  Jim has also found that effective belaying grip strength is lessened when two ropes are in the hand, and this is another reason for me to use an assisted device for half ropes.

I think it worth repeating one of the keys to effective half-rope belaying, which that the belayer should watch the ropes directly in front of them as much as watching the climber.  The relative changes in slack in the lines immediately in front of the belay device tells you quickly and reliably, which strands to pay out and take in and by how much.

I'd like to change the subject slightly...

Does it makes sense to use half ropes on sport lead routes so as to get the advantage of the alternate clipping of each rope? Or is that a waste of higher wear on the ropes due to higher potential to fall/whip on sport lead?  I don't want to wear these new half ropes any more than needed as I always have a nice single rope for sport lead. Thank you.

anotherclimber wrote:

I'd like to change the subject slightly...

Does it makes sense to use half ropes on sport lead routes so as to get the advantage of the alternate clipping of each rope? Or is that a waste of higher wear on the ropes due to higher potential to fall/whip on sport lead?  I don't want to wear these new half ropes any more than needed as I always have a nice single rope for sport lead. Thank you.

If it's multi-pitch and you want 2 ropes, just use them as twins (provided they are also rated as twins) for less wear and easier belaying. Or use a single if you don't need the advantages of 2 ropes.

Half ropes have the same advantage for certain sport situations as they do for trad climbing, namely protection for blown clips, something that can be pretty critical low down, eg the second or third bolt.  I'd use them as twins, but when faced with a dicey clip with bad fall potential, only try to clip one strand while being protected with the other strand.  Once the first strand is in, the second strand can be clipped when waist high to the bolt or you can just go with a single strand at that bolt.  Modern multi-rated ropes don't care if you switch back and forth between twin and half technique, but modern single-rated belayers might not be up to any of the half-rope belaying tasks.

If you are going to be falling a lot, you'll want ropes with a high core percentage, and a good single rope is probably the way to go, although the twin rope configuration is also effective.

Healyje wrote:

Belaying doubles/half ropes is an advanced belaying craft which requires practice. And I would strongly recommend against using any device to 'assist' in the braking aspects of belaying with doubles/half ropes - either you're competent belaying them with an ATC or you shouldn't be using them at all.

That statement could apply equally to any single rope, yet the advantages of a locking-assist device still remain. I'd say the advantages of locking-assist apply even more to half ropes as catching huge whips on a single 8mm rope is less than the most ideal situation.

Anyway, half ropes suck IMO, I find twins to be far better. When you are learning halves, they are a total PITA. More rope management, harder to belay with, harder to climb with, everything just turns into a twist-shit of half ropes jumbled together and twisted along the route. You get to your next belay with four twists at your harness... Now, can that be fixed with some experience and time? Absolutely, but halves are still far more of a pain in the ass than twins, not to mention they are heavy, like really heavy. A set of 8.6mm halves weigh as much as a single 11mm. Halves can cut down on drag when used correctly, but often the advantage of halves on rope drag does not apply (e.g. on routes that dont wonder). Twins still offer full length raps, they weigh less and they are easier to manage, not to mention you dont fall 50' from rope stretch when you whip on them like you do on most halves.

rgold wrote:

Half ropes have the same advantage for certain sport situations as they do for trad climbing, namely protection for blown clips, something that can be pretty critical low down, eg the second or third bolt.  I'd use them as twins, but when faced with a dicey clip with bad fall potential, only try to clip one strand while being protected with the other strand.  Once the first strand is in, the second strand can be clipped when waist high to the bolt or you can just go with a single strand at that bolt.  Modern multi-rated ropes don't care if you switch back and forth between twin and half technique, but modern single-rated belayers might not be up to any of the half-rope belaying tasks.

If you are going to be falling a lot, you'll want ropes with a high core percentage, and a good single rope is probably the way to go, although the twin rope configuration is also effective.

Thank you everyone for all the responses and information. This has been really helpful. I'm very appreciative. 

Rgold, regarding switching back and forth between twin and half rope clipping techniques...  My mentor who uses half ropes has always told me that you only clip in both ropes together like a twin, or alternate clips with each rope, never mix both types in any single pitch. I'm wanting to verify that this is outdated information that doesn't, or rarely applies anymore? My assumption is that this applied back when half ropes were only rated for half? What I bought is both half and twin rated. 

I have another question for rgold regarding the Alpine Up.  Given that it is an "assisted-locking device," do you use a Prusik type knot to back up your rappels?

acrophobe wrote:

I have another question for rgold regarding the Alpine Up.  Given that it is an "assisted-locking device," do you use a Prusik type knot to back up your rappels?

I'm obviously not rgold, but thought you'd appreciate more than one opinion about your question. I've been using the Alpine Up for almost four years now mostly on top belay and rappelling. For myself I've never used a friction knot backup on the rope when rappelling with the Alpine Up in brake assisted mode. I find it entirely un-necessary and I don't even know how you'd manipulate the friction knot and hold onto the brake strand while operating the lever with your other hand. When the Alpine Up is put into it's locked setting in brake assisted mode, it stays there and only opens when you press on the plastic lever. If you rappel in dynamic (not brake assisted) mode, then yes I would use a friction knot backup. Any particular reason why you ask or want to use one?

acrophobe wrote:

I have another question for rgold regarding the Alpine Up.  Given that it is an "assisted-locking device," do you use a Prusik type knot to back up your rappels?

I don't. I've only ever experienced slippage on a single strand rap on a skinny rope under 9mm. I haven't rapped double strand on halfs/twins but my guess would be that it locks up fine considering it can catch a fall unattended with doubles.

anotherclimber wrote:

Thank you everyone for all the responses and information. This has been really helpful. I'm very appreciative. 

Rgold, regarding switching back and forth between twin and half rope clipping techniques...  My mentor who uses half ropes has always told me that you only clip in both ropes together like a twin, or alternate clips with each rope, never mix both types in any single pitch. I'm wanting to verify that this is outdated information that doesn't, or rarely applies anymore? My assumption is that this applied back when half ropes were only rated for half? What I bought is both half and twin rated. 

Also not Rgold, but the answer to your question is you can separate twins into halves, but it's less ideal to go from clipping halves to clipping twins. The idea is if you clip the ropes as halves, depending on the route, the ropes can take separate paths. If that happens, each rope will elongate a different amount as a result of the total rope out and rope drag. Then, if both ropes are running next to each other through the same biner because they are now clipped as twins, they can move through the biner at different speeds on a fall causing, in theory, one to start cutting through the other. In reality, I've never heard of this actually happening, but it's reasonable advice to try to avoid this situation if possible.

From the thread 6 years ago discussing this:-

"you had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes."
 

Following up on 20kN and Jim's posts above, unless the twins are also rated as a halfs (more common today), then you always clip them together treating them like a single and never separate them.

Here's a couple of examples of half-rated twin ropes (or vice-versa):

"Black Diamond 7.8 FullDry Rope - BD's skinniest twin or half rope for alpinism"

"The Beal Gulley 7.3mm Unicore is the lightest half-rope on the market, weighing only 36 grams per meter. It is also certified as a twin rope."

Again, don't clip 'twin-only' ropes separately.

20 kN wrote:

That statement could apply equally to any single rope, yet the advantages of a locking-assist device still remain. I'd say the advantages of locking-assist apply even more to half ropes as catching huge whips on a single 8mm rope is less than the most ideal situation.

Anyway, half ropes suck IMO, I find twins to be far better. When you are learning halves, they are a total PITA. More rope management, harder to belay with, harder to climb with, everything just turns into a twist-shit of half ropes jumbled together and twisted along the route. You get to your next belay with four twists at your harness... Now, can that be fixed with some experience and time? Absolutely, but halves are still far more of a pain in the ass than twins, not to mention they are heavy, like really heavy. A set of 8.6mm halves weigh as much as a single 11mm. Halves can cut down on drag when used correctly, but often the advantage of halves on rope drag does not apply (e.g. on routes that dont wonder). Twins still offer full length raps, they weigh less and they are easier to manage, not to mention you dont fall 50' from rope stretch when you whip on them like you do on most halves.

I would very much disagree with you first statement - doubles/half ropes is an entirely different deal and beast than belaying a single rope and I consider any attempt to assist/mechanize belaying doubles/half ropes misguided in the extreme.

As to your second statement, yes, half ropes are a pain in the ass to learn, but they exist for a reason and in the context they are designed for - routes that wander - twins suck balls just as bad or worse than a single rope. Portraying them as somehow interchangeable in that context just leaves the impression you don't have much experience with them or on those kind of routes.

acrophobe wrote:

I have another question for rgold regarding the Alpine Up.  Given that it is an "assisted-locking device," do you use a Prusik type knot to back up your rappels?

I'm going to echo the others and say that I see no reason to back up the AlpineUp's rappel. Once that thing is locked, there's no way you could possibly drop yourself. If anything, it can be a bit tedious to do long steep rappels on fat ropes. I think the auto locking rappel is one of the most undersold features of the device, I take full advantage of it practically every time I'm out. 

Thanks for the responses people.   

Just to clarify, what I bought is Mammut Genesis 8.5mm half ropes that also happen to be rated as twins. I'm sure there is a place for twin ropes, and I respect user 20 kN opinion, but I have to agree with Healyje that the whole purpose for half ropes is to protect wandering routes with minimal rope drag and not having to extend protection significantly. 

anotherclimber wrote:

Thanks for the responses people.   

Just to clarify, what I bought is Mammut Genesis 8.5mm half ropes that also happen to be rated as twins. I'm sure there is a place for twin ropes, and I respect user 20 kN opinion, but I have to agree with Healyje that the whole purpose for half ropes is protect wandering routes with minimal rope drag and not having to extend protection significantly. 

Well heck, let me be first in line to add, "go have fun"! 

Best, H. And I'll vouch for Trevor using his Alpine Up nonstop, 24/7/365, except when something unfortunate like work intervenes.

I want to clarify a few points about the possibility of half rope belaying with the Alpine Smart Belay and Megajul/Microjul. While it does seem that it can be done (although not easily and most people including myself wouldn't choose to do so), just from me practicing on the ground by myself I have a strong suspicion it would be much more difficult in real usage climbing beyond just tiring and wearing out the elbows of the belayer. My thought being that as soon as the belayer unintentionally shorts the climber, the device will lock up and then you will have to put your thumb in/under the loop/nose to unlock it. Depending on how tight you keep the belay, this could be a constant and very annoying issue. I don't believe these are the ideal belay devices for this application, unless you are using your half ropes as twins and clipping them in together in every piece of protection, or one rope protects the first part of a pitch, and the other protects the final part of the of it. So basically any climbing where the belayer doesn't have to simultaneously take in and feed slack at the same time on opposite ropes. Otherwise, in my opinion the better choices are a non-brake assisted belay device, or the Alpine Up.

Also, even though my Megajul seems to lock up tight on my 8.5mm ropes, based on the data from Jim Titt and other users comments, you probably should be using the Microjul with thin diameter half or twin ropes.