Lowering two climbers

I don't see any problems lowering two at once (plaquette mode or redirected plate) since it is much faster than lowering one at a time. As long as you have the brake redirected and backed up, you can treat both ropes as one (helps to do diligence when leading so not to cross ropes). 

This can be harder to control with a heavier load with little friction (weight of belayers/rope rubbing over rock). If so you can add more friction by enchaining devices (put belay device on redirected brake, and add a friction hitch under the plate to back it up.  

http://trango.com/p-265-barracuda-knife.aspx

keep in mind its 2 beginners who may not be all that gracefull at being lowered. add sharp pointy tings into the mix and its big no no.

Derek DeBruin wrote:

Right, this is exactly what I mentioned in my prior response.  Works fine.

Thanks Derek I think this was one of those situations where I hadn't seen it done before but I knew it was fine.  

* I don't actually think any device autolocks, and you should never remove a hand from the brake strand. Ever...

lowering in guide mode is doeable. period. It can be done but it is a chore and its easy to screw it up. very difficult to give a smooth lower.  A jerky  unpredictable lower can get someone hurt. Most of the guides that I climb with switch the client to a munter for the lower or they use a gri gri or simeler to belay and lower. 

I would argue that lowering in guide mode isn't unsafe so much as a PITA and slower than other methods, and thus the general lack of interest in lowering in guide mode.  As Nick Goldsmith said, many guides will simply use an assisted braking device (GriGri, Cinch), which makes for very fast changeovers between belaying and lower.  Even doing a simple load transfer to a munter is rather fast - a lot of guides will have had a good amount of practice doing all sorts of load transfers, so doing a load transfer to a munter would be more familiar than rigging to lower from guide mode.

Arguably, an interesting option would be to use two autolocking Munters/belay devices, and simply convert the one you need to lower into a Munter/lowering mode for lowering.  The advantage of this setup is that you have two independent belay devices - in theory, you don't need to lower both followers.  Of course, IRL, you probably will have to do something funny if you lower the top climber.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

lowering in guide mode is doeable. period. It can be done but it is a chore and its easy to screw it up. very difficult to give a smooth lower.  A jerky  unpredictable lower can get someone hurt. Most of the guides that I climb with switch the client to a munter for the lower or they use a gri gri or simeler to belay and lower. 

That's why you don't lower in guide (plaquette) mode--you lower in plate/tube mode. You'll want a friction hitch and redirect carabiner regardless. But instead of defeating the plaquette for the aforementioned jerky lower, you just clip the braking carabiner to the masterpoint, ask the followers to stand up, and remove the hanging carabiner from the masterpoint. Then, you'really ready to lower. This operation takes seconds. 

Look closely at the the pic bomberbill posted. The device is in plate mode, not plaquette (aka guide) mode. 

I use a GriGri regularly when I have a single follower. When I have two followers, I use a plaquette and it works fine once converted to a plate.

any of you guys actually do this shit on a reguler basis or do you just  post pictures and diagrams and shit??

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

any of you guys actually do this shit on a reguler basis or do you just  post pictures and diagrams and shit??

Yes. I make my living as a guide and have done so for a decade. I use this skill regularly and successfully in that context, and also on occasion in my personal climbing. The initial question was simply about whether this works--it does, and it has a reasonable scope of applications. 

It is not always appropriate; sometimes lowering with a GriGri, lowering with a munter, or rappelling make more sense. All of the discussion along those lines is certainly valid. But if the question is about whether it's feasible, efficient, and relatively safe to bring up two followers in plaquette mode, convert to plate mode, and lower both at once, the answer is definitely yes.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

on a reguler basis

Once could be more than enough. Because nobody's gonna die twice and consequences of mistakes in rock climbing rescue situations could be fatal.

Derek DeBruin wrote:

Interesting. none of the guides i climb and work with use an atc style device for lowering. they seem to always use the gri gri/cinch or munter.

@Nick:

A lot depends on context, as this determines the appropriate application. I use a munter, plaquette, grigri, hip belay, terrain belay, hand belay, etc. regularly. Perhaps you're only seeing the  guides you know working in a specific context, or at a specific crag, or with some kind of regional nuance. There is certainly nothing wrong with the methods you've suggested, it's just a matter of what might work best in a given situation (and with all things in climbing, "it depends.")

Generally, for rock work, I select the Grigri whenever possible as transitions are simple, pulling rope is a breeze, and there is more security for the lead belay, all other things being equal. Plaquettes have have a habit of over-working the arms or even wrecking elbows over the course of a career. I'll employ the grigri most often for single pitch rock work and for multipitch cragging. It shows up on my harness occasionally in the alpine.

The plaquette makes sense when I work at a 2:1 ratio. Multipitch climbing it's pretty much mandatory for that. For single pitch work, it's pretty cool to be able to work the top of the cliff and let both followers climb together on whatever routes can be accessed from the same anchors/ledge. Parent/child, couples, friends, etc. frequently enjoy getting to climb at the same time if the route allows. In these cases, the plaquette is the best tool for the job, and therefore knowing all the ins and outs is really useful.

On ice, I like Grigris for the above reasons, but if the rope gets icy, I go back to the plaquette. For snow, RangerJ noted lowering two climbers on a single rope, which is quite reasonable given the low angle context of much snow climbing. I do this as well.

You clearly have a grasp of many of the potential pitfalls of lowering two followers simultaneously (particularly from guide mode), and often there are reasons not to do this. Certainly lowering one at a time removes many potential complications. Occasionally, there are good reasons to do so--lowering down a pitch of ice (simultaneous lowering reduces icefall hazard since the climbers are next to and not above each other), getting away from imminent lightning where speed is valuable, etc. In these cases using the plaquette in plate mode works well.

What Derek said...All of it...In fact, everyone do yourself and those around you a favor and pick up this new book coming out.

http://www.chauvinguides.com/the-book/

I often run into guides i know while doing my solo laps on long gully climbs in here in the north east. then you see and chat with the same folks woking at the steep cragging spots and then see them again at the big steep climbs like willoughby.  then you go to the  tower and the tetons and run into some of the same familiar faces. its a small world ;)

KeithS wrote:

What Derek said...All of it...In fact, everyone do yourself and those around you a favor and pick up this new book coming out.

http://www.chauvinguides.com/the-book/

Indeed. Can't wait to see what sort of black magic gets revealed inside,

Thank, Derek & Keith, for pimping the book! Here's a pic of the LSD Lower...which will be in Climbing this next issue and covered comprehensively in the book....read up on it and practice on the ground before going live--and notice the back-up! Smoother, safer, easier than unweighting/releasing the blocking 'biner...

And apologies on the gates facing the rock--somehow my rad model (you know her, Derek!) and I twisted the anchor when setting up the LSD...ack! We'll fix it in the second edition...

(Oh, and edited to add: I haven't messed with lowering two climbers with the LSD...but you could block one while you lower the first...but I'll look into it. Thought I'd throw this out there, as we're discussing the recommended methods by BD and Petzl...

coppolillo wrote:

Thank, Derek & Keith, for pimping the book! Here's a pic of the LSD Lower...which will be in Climbing this next issue and covered comprehensively in the book....read up on it and practice on the ground before going live--and notice the back-up! Smoother, safer, easier than unweighting/releasing the blocking 'biner...

And apologies on the gates facing the rock--somehow my rad model (you know her, Derek!) and I twisted the anchor when setting up the LSD...ack! We'll fix it in the second edition...

(Oh, and edited to add: I haven't messed with lowering two climbers with the LSD...but you could block one while you lower the first...but I'll look into it. Thought I'd throw this out there, as we're discussing the recommended methods by BD and Petzl...

Ah very nice to see this lowering technique posted online.   I had been calling it the Chauvin lower (Invented by your colleague Mark Chauvin I think?) regardless it works very well and I have been using it frequently for over a year.  This method requires your climber to momentarily unweight the rope before you attach the carabiner redirect.  It is simple to setup allowing the ATC/Plaquette to remain in guide mode and eliminates all the trickery of lowering while in guide mode (which I typically don't do other lowering methods are better).  

BTW What does LSD stand for???

Comparing these methods here is what I have found:

LSD/Chauvin Lower:

• Easy setup
• More friction (potentially good for heavier climbers)
• Less chance for error
• Simple to go back to climbing mode

Standard Lower (as in Bomber Bill's diagram):

• More widely used
• Less friction lowers climbers fast - always use a backup.
• Smoother lower

And to the topic of this thread lowering two climbers as OP and others have mentioned is perfectly fine as described.  It is just another tool to have in your bag when the situation calls and I have used it many times.  

Chris Walden wrote:

When would the situation call for this?