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Lowering two climbers

Original Post
BomberBill · · California · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0

Over the weekend I ran into this situation and hadn't really considered this before.  Two followers come up to a single pitch belay station on a large ledge and there are 3 other climbers hanging out.  ATC in guide mode, top managed belay and they request to be lowered vs. rapping down.  Has anyone ever lowered two climbers at once off an ATC?  

Thought was to switch ATC to lower mode, clip high to redirect brake strand, back up with auto block off harness just like SOP for a single lower -- however have another climber at the belay station do the same.  In effect you have two people (at the top managed belay) lowering two people simultaneously on two ropes just using the single ATC as a lowering device.  We ended up doing single lowers but...

My reservations were.

  1. Never heard of this being done before (doesn't mean it's bad practice)
  2. Additional forces applied to the anchor (it was trucker 2 bolt anchor so not an issue here)
  3. Ropes rubbing.  We set it up but the system was clean no rope rub.  

Thoughts?  Missing anything?  Seems like a safe more efficient way to lower two climbers in parallel then doing it as singles.  

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

Lower one at a time.

Edit: Did the leader (you?) see the other three climbers, but still brought up the two followers? If so, that was a problem. 

Edit #2: Why can't the followers rap down? Just because they requested to be lowered?

Edit #3 (ha ha): What was the original plan for getting back to the ground?

Alex (spellstrike) Palmiter · · Duluth · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 30

Rappelling seems to be a better option here.  In addition to your concerns above...

1)Everyone can get set up with their rap devices and triple check everyone in the whole party before proceeding to rap. With knots in the end, much of the risk is gone and this is something the party can also check before even starting to rappel as well.

2)Lowering two people scares me because I like have 2 hands on the rope when lowering.

3)Rappelling puts the responsibility on you to protect yourself. I like this because I don't have to worry about someone else dropping me. 

BomberBill · · California · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0
FrankPS wrote:

Lower one at a time.

Edit: Did the leader (you?) see the other three climbers, but still brought up the two followers? If so, that was a problem. 

Edit #2: Why can't the followers rap down? Just because they requested to be lowered?

Edit #3 (ha ha): What was the original plan for getting back to the ground?

1 - Yes we knew them up there it's a party ledge no issues.

2 - Original plan was to lower (they are newish climbers, have rapped but are still a little nervous about rapping) even though a person was on the ground to provide a fireman's if needed. 

BomberBill · · California · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0
spellstrike wrote:

Rappelling seems to be a better option here.  In addition to your concerns above...

1)Everyone can get set up with their rap devices and triple check everyone in the whole party before proceeding to rap. With knots in the end, much of the risk is gone and this is something the party can also check before even starting to rappel as well.

2)Lowering two people scares me because I like have 2 hands on the rope when lowering.

3)Rappelling puts the responsibility on you to protect yourself. I like this because I don't have to worry about someone else dropping me. 

2 - Hence the reason you have two people managing each of the climbers on lower (see above...)  one person lowering two climbers would be more challenging. 

Kiri Namtvedt · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 30

As learning to rappel is an important skill, I would have taken the opportunity to have them practice that and become less nervous about it.  If they really really didn't want to, I'd definitely lower one at a time.  As with simul-rappelling, it's better to do it one at a time unless you really need to save time.

Idaho Bob · · McCall, ID · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 757

I'd never consider lowering two at a time.  My first choice would be to lower one at a time using Gri-Gri (with back up) rather than an ATC.  The Gri-Gri provides a smoother and easier way to control lower, IMHO.  Agree with above comments that the situation seemed like a good opportunity to become more comfortable with rappelling and the second rope could be used (again with a backed-up Gri-Gri) to provide a safety line to give person rappelling extra security and confidence.  

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

there are times for safty reasons that the safest way to get a new climber down is to lower them.  lowering in guide mode is not recomended. It can be done but requires a back up and the understanding of how to rig that back up and what it is meant to accomplish. additionaly lowering in guide mode with or without the back up is not smooth.  People have been dropped this way.

 Easiest / safest way to get two folks down from a ledge when they have never rappeled before yet are comfortable being lowered is to ..

1.get them clipped into the anchor. 

2. get one climber at a time on to a munter off the master point of the anchor. the 2nd climber stays clipped in.  

3. lower one climber with the munter. 

4. get the 2nd climber in to the munter, unclip them from the anchor and lower.  Idealy you would use a back up on the munter as well. you will also have to seperate the ropes and stack them prior to lowering the first climber.  

Additional care will be needed to assure that rope of the lowering climber does not run over a sharp edge. If the ledge is wide and the anchor is on the back wall of the ledge it may be unsafe to lower from that anchor. You should KNOW THIS before bringing 2 beginners up there. Some anchors were never intended for lowering.  You should  teach those climbers how to rapell under a more controled setting then on a multi pitch climb with no other way down...    that being said i certainly learned in a rather dangerous situation... you just can't do that cowboy shit anymore though....

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Place the belay device into floating plate mode on the powerpoint. Redirect the brake strands above the powerpoint and back to another plate on your belay plate. Lower both at same time. Takes on 10seconds to set up. 

See option B at http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/13SelfRescueSenarios2.htm#loweringaclimber

for photos

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

step one from your link...

However, you could have just tied off the  Reverso in step 1 and used a Munter if you need to abseil.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Sounds like a cluster.  I'm picturing a mess at the anchor, ropes tangled together...and helicopters and flashing lights.  Even with a backup, I would be concerned with levering the autoblock.

If you're taking people up a multipitch, teach them how to rappel.  What if something had happened to you?

Alex (spellstrike) Palmiter · · Duluth · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 30
Ted Pinson wrote:

If you're taking people up a multipitch, teach them how to rappel.  What if something had happened to you?

Jimmy Downhillinthesnow · · Fort Collins, CO / Seattle, WA · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 10

You can tie off one of the two strands with a BFK (big f'ing knot) and lower from the ATC in guide mode one-at-a-time that way, but lowering in guide mode is finicky, requires a backup, and can be dangerous. I second having them clip into the anchor and lower each individually by re-directing through a locker...and teaching them how to rap.

BomberBill · · California · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0

MP ladies & gents -- sorry reading back on my post it was confusing.  First paragraph meant to explain the setup on climb -- belaying in 'guide mode' two followers come up... Second paragraph wasn't clear "switch to lower mode" means - ATC was no longer in guide mode.  Lowering in guide mode on anything over a very short distance just isn't very practical and can be dangerous if not done correctly so best avoided.  Also the ledge isn't in play the bolts are chest height and provide a clean belay/lower straight over the climb.  

However lowering on a plaquette style device should be rigged similar to this which is how I typically lower (and this weekend is how they were lowered in serial).  

Now back to the question.  My thought was like this BUT you have another biner on the shelf (Behind everything Red Biner) and another Belayer manage the other person.  This should provide a clearer illustrated thought that went through my mind, not a cluster, no flashing lights, no helicopters, this system is clean, backed up, & faster than two people rapping off or lowering each one serially... So why not this?

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
BomberBill wrote:

MP ladies & gents -- sorry reading back on my post it was confusing.  First paragraph meant to explain the setup on climb -- belaying in 'guide mode' two followers come up... Second paragraph wasn't clear "switch to lower mode" means - ATC was no longer in guide mode.  Lowering in guide mode on anything over a very short distance just isn't very practical and can be dangerous if not done correctly so best avoided.  Also the ledge isn't in play the bolts are chest height and provide a clean belay/lower straight over the climb.  

However lowering on a plaquette style device should be rigged similar to this which is how I typically lower (and this weekend is how they were lowered in serial).  

You can just do this, but with two ropes--it's the same as how you'd do it with twins/doubles, but with two people on the end instead of one.  You'll want to consider your ability to control the increased load as well as the terrain they'll be lowered into (ex. can they kick rocks on each other while lowering?).  The friction hitch back-up and redirect are required. No need to use an additional redirect or anything as in your second picture. One person can operate the whole thing. If you still want to lower in series, you can do that just by putting a blocking knot in one of the ropes. I use this guiding from time to time with no problems as long as you know how to convert the system to lower, include the redirect and friction hitch, and consider the increased loads, rockfall, edge, etc. hazards.

BomberBill · · California · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0

Thinking about this more one person could easily lower two followers as well.  Tie off/secure one of the followers and lower them down a bit, then lower both climbers together the rest of the way.  Terrain dependent they could easily go side by side as well.  

I am always looking at ways to add various methods to my kit & skills.  Under the right circumstances this works, it's secure & it's faster than two people rapping off or lowering one at a time.  

Disadvantages:

  1. Additional load on the anchor -- not necessarily a disadvantage but something to keep in mind.  
  2. Possible rocks/ice/debris falling down on lower person (terrain dependent)

Advantages:

  1. Same setup as lowering one climber
  2. Speed and security 

Any more thoughts on this?  Seems practical in certain situations.

coppolillo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 70

Check out the "LSD Lower" in the upcoming issue of Climbing magazine--it'll be a tech tip. It's also featured in The Mountain Guide Manual, due out in a couple weeks on Falcon Guides! 

http://www.vettamountainguides.com/the-book/

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

If you have a separate belayer to lower each climber anyway, what is the advantage in having both ropes running through the same device? What is the advantage in lowering them simultaneously rather than one at a time? Seems like it'd be annoying for the climbers bumping into each other on the way down, unless lightning was rolling in I don't see why it would be preferable. 

As for lowering in guide mode - even with a single follower, I wouldn't lower someone an entire pitch length in guide mode, particularly if they are starting out at the ledge with me and it will be very safe, quick, and easy to clip them in direct and set up a better lowering system. Lowering in guide mode is at best a pain, and at worst dangerous. My first choice would be not to lower them at all but teach them how to rappel, but of course you may have a reason you need to lower.

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
BomberBill wrote:

Thinking about this more one person could easily lower two followers as well.  Tie off/secure one of the followers and lower them down a bit, then lower both climbers together the rest of the way.  Terrain dependent they could easily go side by side as well.  

I am always looking at ways to add various methods to my kit & skills.  Under the right circumstances this works, it's secure & it's faster than two people rapping off or lowering one at a time.  

Disadvantages:

  1. Additional load on the anchor -- not necessarily a disadvantage but something to keep in mind.  
  2. Possible rocks/ice/debris falling down on lower person (terrain dependent)

Advantages:

  1. Same setup as lowering one climber
  2. Speed and security 

Any more thoughts on this?  Seems practical in certain situations.

Right, this is exactly what I mentioned in my prior response.  Works fine.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

holy clusterfvck batman, why the hell would you want to do ANY of this???  uggh.

RandyLee · · On the road · Joined May 2016 · Points: 246

Just teach 'em to rap. If you're in a hurry, simul. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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