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Climber takes a whip, has a close call....and, a newish belayer
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I think the real lesson here is to not post anything on MP. |
Sam Cannon wrote: right on Sam. |
T Roper wrote: Actually, for those of you reading this, with a heavy climber, light belayer partnership, just suck it up and buy an Ohm. Or, if you're the big guy, take some responsibility for that fact and pack an Ohm with you. This former hawtie would certainly be impressed with that level of thoughtfulness! :-) Sans that, extra weight, with an adjustable tether and a biner to clip, unclip easily, is a pretty good option, and, again, if this is a regular partnership perhaps consider something custom made that's easy to pack along and won't rip the first time you use it. The extra weight may not quite keep your belayer on the ground, and may well be drug across the ground in a whip, so keep that in mind. I've used the sandbags at the gym, and seen them used plenty, so do have experience with them. It's especially nice if someone is working a route hard, and a bunch of falls are part of the plan (sport or top rope). The belayer can lean back on that tether and brace, relax little, shift position, and, big advantage, you can drag that sucker around even while belaying. Remember, too, that pack has to take the hit of the falling climber, not just hold the weight of the rocks. For myself? Same plan I followed here. TEST the weight difference first, then proceed accordingly. When we did that on the first, sport, lead, if he had a slick skinny rope, I had a simple tube device, anything like that, and I went flying, then, first, now that I know about it (thanks, MP!!!), I would have doubled up the binders for extra friction on my device. If that didn't work, my partner and I would have to discuss the options, including not climbing outside at all. My personal choice? No anchor, unless it is really an unusual situation. After this fall? Even more so. And posting all this on MP? Hey, I'm ancient, remember? Not some sweet young thing who'll cave in the first time you glare at me. Actually, I don't think that's ever been the case. Ornery at birth. Picked the right crowd to hang with! Most important? We are a small community. All of us really care when we read the accident reports, and most of us really want to understand what happened. We do all learn from each other, after all. Unless you're truly stupid. Best, Helen |
John Barritt wrote: Excellent typo, John! Autofill strikes again! I only just got my phone to stop putting in boner every time I typed biner. Hah! Those have been entertaining. |
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climbing friend, it does not sound like the bodyfat weight it was the issue, it osunds like it was squeezing the rocks "10 feet" above last piece of gear on moderate, falling, pulling gear, and the having placed inadequate gear. Perhaps he was trying to "run it out" to demonstrate his masculine power or would be impressing to you when in fact he was ill prepared for this very situation and should have placed more and/or better gear? |
Aleks Zebastian wrote: Friend Aleks, yes, the consensus is pretty much that he ran it out. Simply a choice. In hindsight, not a good choice, especially on unfamiliar rock. No attempt at impressing, he just...did it, made that choice. Oops. If he had not fallen, there'd be nothing to report. If he had fallen and the first piece held, same. It was only the two together, that made a close call. His weight really wasn't an issue. I've gone several feet up with a climber only 10ish pounds heavier, on a "fall" (that climber actually jumped) that was the equivalent of the first part of this fall, about 8-10 feet. FWIW, the gear held for some miniscule bit, because I was going up when I felt it pop, so the rope had come taut, but, I also had no sensation of a pause, in the second or so it took for the whole thing to be over. Best, Helen |
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Oh Helen, You are so endearing. I appreciate your openness and desire for feedback in a public forum. You are giving more effort than many people at your stage in the game. That is good. But, I must say, with all due respect, your test methods, conclusions and beliefs are a bit flawed. First, lowering him as a test provided little valuable information other than you could safely lower him. This gives zero insight as to what a dynamic fall would be like . After doing some math on the beach in Mexico, here are a few numbers to put it into perspective: A 200lbs leader drops 1 foot onto rope to be lowered. Energy generated=6000 A 200lbs leader falls 10 feet. Energy generated=60,000!!! Second, you seem to believe trad = no anchor, probably for a soft catch. First off, if the soft catch allows your leader to hit a ledge or the ground, then the soft catch did more harm than good. Second, with a dynamic rope, atc and less weight than the leader, there will be plenty of dynamics to the belay, even anchored. Just anchor with the dynamic rope, a clove hitch and a bit of slack. You just might save your partner some day. Third, trad = atc. Not necessarily. Sure, if the gear is marginal, belayer similar weight, and consequences of blown piece problematic, yes atc is good. But, if I outweigh my belayer by 50lbs, even anchored lossely, there is enough dynamics right there. You see, there is a limit as to how much dynamics we should add to the system without adverse consequences. |
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A good way to think of it: You start with some fixed numbers. Weight difference is fixed. So is gravity. Now, there is a sliding scale to approximate forces and fall distance. Let's start with equal weight and atc. A given fall will give a force and distance. Substitute a gri gri. Forces slide higher. Distance less. Sub lighter belayer. Forces go down. Distance more. Leader falls close to belay. Forces higher. Distance less. We can give many more variations, of course. Hopefully you get the point. When I outweighs my partner by 50lbs, I'm happy to see a gri gri in most cases, even on trad. I'm also likely to anchor my belayer if I outweigh him or her by 50lbs and ground fall or ledge fall is likely, even on trad. |
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Greg, we did a fall, also, not just lower, although that's enough weight to possibly pop me up even on a top rope lower. And, this minute I am at the gym, test driving an Alpine Up. Even with a really fat rope, it was GREAT on a lead belay. I super like this device, and it will be my assisted brake belay, if/when I get the money together. I'm sure you could eff up with it somehow, but I've yet to puzzle out how. Ledges, etc, yeah, I actually get that. Remember, this columnar basalt, with broken columns and loads of "ground fall" potential, even way off the ground, is my home rock, and all I know. Sorry, my preference will still be to not anchor, outside, except as I see fit to do so. At least I am capable of it, not many ever even think about it, from what I've seen, not for single pitch. Best, Helen What the heck is the photo? Edit: beach math. You just had to tell me that, eh? |
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climbing friend, do not utilize the deadly ATC! |
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Helen seems gun-ho about not anchoring. I don't know what good being able to move around unanchored does if she insists on standing on the block. After seeing the photo, I still think it's a pigeonholed position, restricting movement & visibilty, and that further adds possibility of pulling climber off lead in the chance of stumble. A side effect of not standing on the block is slightly lower fall forces with slightly more rope out. Despite the 14 pages, the options to me are still: A) want to stand on block? - anchor B) don't want to anchor? - stand on ground With a big weight difference on single pitch I often clip into a pack with stuff instead of anchoring. I will probably buy the edelrid ohm if I get a regular heavy climbing partner. I don't know about this alpine up thing but my grigri & me have caught 100s of falls even several at the 1st pro when the climber thought he'd deck. Effectively zero slippage. Saved my one climber from decking when he fell attempting to clip 2nd bolt but failed. When he fell horizontally his head was 0.5" from ground, I went up 2 feet but luckily the grigri was zero rope slippage. |
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The photo is the math I drew in the sand to demonstrate how much energy even a small lead fall has. But, it still did not convince you that a ground anchor or even just a backpack with some extra weight is a good idea when leader outweighs belayer. At least some other readers may have benefited. Good luck to you. |
Greg D wrote: Another long post. So be it. Greg, Ana, keep reading. :-) Sorry Greg, I didn't say I never would, just that it would not usually be my preference. If your aim is to keep the belayer on, or very close to, the ground, it is a pretty short tether, and you'd have zero chance of moving quickly, if at all. I find that a greater risk than going airborne from a thought out stance. So yes, I agree with you and the above post, a bag with weight is a much simpler way to go, and can at least be drug around to change position. I, and many others, use the sandbags in the gym now and then. It's particularly nice when someone is working something. You can put your feet on the bag, brace, and lean back, sit a bit to take some slack, stand to give it back....Maybe best not to do this with your buddies gear bag though. And thank you, I'm sure others benefit from these threads. I sure have. In this particular case, I'm glad I wasn't anchored. His fall would have been shortened by 4-5 feet at most, possibly still in range of hitting me, if I am now out on the ground somewhere. He's also still in range of the 8-9 foot pillar, on a fall that was no longer soft. Or, if he cleared it, what would that pendulum swing have done then? And, with a shortened leg? Lotsa pure blind luck. Honestly, if I had anchored, first choice would have been to stand on that little pillar, still, with a gear anchor in front of/beside me. Not great second choice is same, but to the left, which would have had rope dragging over the tall column. Last, not great either, is something slung back behind, long cord with a prussik tether. The pointy rock slants toward the cliff, and the half buried stuff on the left are smooth and solid, so the options for this are well back. The last wouldn't have made much difference at all, but is the fastest, easiest anchor to set at our cliffs. Not being a traddie (yet!) this is what I know how to do, sling some boulder, knot the other end of the cord, tie a prussik, clip in. Useful in some situations, like at the top of the cliff while rigging a top rope, but generally worse than nothing at the base. So. I need to change that, don't I? I will promise all of you here that I will put my first gear (only acquired last week) to use, and FIRST practice placements with the aim of building a cliff face (or very near) ground anchor, good for a whopping upward pull. I will still use my judgement when to do so, but I will not have to rely on someone else making that judgement, always a danger, IMO. Ignorance is not bliss, it's stupidity. Happy? Thanks, all, like always. You people are super. Best, Helen |
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You seem to be hung up on the idea that being anchored to the ground means you have to be so tight that you don't move at all. That's not how it should work. You make your tie in long enough that the belayer can still move and for smaller/lower force falls you will not go taught on whatever you use to tether. The whole point is to make it so that in those big falls you simply limit upward travel of the belayer to reduce potential total fall distance. For *most* falls you'll never go tight on this tether, but when the shit is hitting the fan you will. Watch this video from my local crag, the climber was working a steeper 35M route with bigger spacing between bolts, he skipped the first clip getting up through some low 11 moves to the ledge above the belay. Now in this case we're talking about a 13c route that's all an extension, start is 11b, they aren't falling until really high up. The light belayer with no ground anchor makes sense.....................but think about this on a shorter pitch with ledges. You should be anchored to keep your climber off the ground in a high force fall. http://www.rockandice.com/weekend-whipper-video/weekend-whipper-belayer-rocket |
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Helen, you definitely have the right attitude when it comes to your drive to learn more about climbing. You are always trying to learn new things about climbing, which is really awesome and that knowledge, when applied with good judgement, will keep you safe. However, your judgement when it comes to anchoring the belayer seems a bit off. Now I can't say for sure that you should or should not anchor because I don't fully understand the context as I've never been to your crag. It seems to me that you want to be able to move around to dodge falling objects. That's certainly something to take into consideration if you're climbing choss. But ARE you climbing choss? How frequently does stuff fall off? Also, in my somewhat limited experience climbing choss, in many cases it falls faster than you can react, especially on a shorter cliff like 70ft or less. So I'm kind of questioning the value of mobility in the context of dodging projectiles. That's something for you to consider, and perhaps discuss with other climbers with more experience, such as your son. But the fact of the matter is that, if you're climbing with someone significantly heavier than you, it is your responsibility and obligation limit your vertical displacement in some way if it poses a hazard to your climber. A soft catch is great on steep terrain and sometimes even dead vert, but on lower angle terrain it's usually a bad idea. If you aren't fond of anchoring, another option would be to add weight to yourself via weight vest or rocks in your pack. |
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So just as a summary - Beginner belayer describes situation, asks for advice. Experienced climbers give advice. Beginner belayer says you all are wrong, I am an old lady so don't think I will just listen to you. Thread goes on for 14 pages. |
Old lady H wrote: For the TLDR folks, please see the sentence near the end that begins "Ignorance". Best H. That whipper clip was great! |
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climbing friend, do not utilize the ground anchor, it is stupid, unless the climber they fat outweigh you by 50+ pounds, and even then it may not be necessary. Instead you are climbing with perhaps more competent leader who is able to place more and better gear and/or back off if they may be hucking their meat off trad climb in non-green light falling situation... or at least who does not "running it out" and pulling piece at same time on the eazzzy grade climbing rocks, yes? |
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Again the bottom line: this guy sucks at placing gear and took an unnecessarily big fall on a 5.7. |
