Offset cams - which?

Optimistic wrote:

Any other offset TCU fans out there? Especially curious about using them in horizontals, I (and a lot of other Gunks climbers) feel a little dubious about Mastercams in horizontals.

Please explain why.  Seems like the stiff stem would be more of a problem, but I very rarely place pro in horizontal cracks. 

Joe Trabucco wrote:

anyone know what the 3 totem basic hybrids sizes translate in X4 offsets or master cam offsets??

Totem Basic Blue/Green ~= X4 0.2/0.3 and Mastercam Purple/Blue

Totem Basic Green/Yellow ~= X4 0.3/0.4 and Mastercam Blue/Yellow

Totem Basic Yellow/Red ~= X4 0.4/0.5 and Mastercam Yellow/Orange

Conversions are approximate. In general, the X4s are a bit bigger that the equivalent basics So 0.3/0/4 X4 is a bit bigger than the green/yellow basic. Also remember that the range on the Metolius cams is limited due to thier choice of camming angle..

There are only 3 sizes of Offset Basics, so if you want the really little (0.1/0.2) or big (0.5/0.75) sizes, you'd have to go to X4s or Mastercams.

Ryan Hamilton wrote:

Please explain why.  Seems like the stiff stem would be more of a problem, but I very rarely place pro in horizontal cracks. 

Well, first sort of anecdotally, it looks to me and some of my partners and I like at certain depths a horizontal edge will pull on the cables/cords and loosen the cams (the lower ones, I think). My partner wrote to Metolius and they told him that Mastercams are not designed for horizontal placements. This thread describes a similar email interaction (from someone other than my partner).

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/109977711/redesigned-metolius-mastercams

I have the hypothesis that the only reason anyone would think that Mastercams are good cams is that they have not had a chance to use the Basics.

Joe Trabucco wrote:

anyone know what the 3 totem basic hybrids sizes translate in X4 offsets or master cam offsets??

If anyone is interested there's a nice tool here for comparing cam ranges. Just select the ones you want to compare and boom.

https://camparator.com

I want to give some love to the X4 offsets. For the small sizes I don't think there are any more bomber offsets out there.  I have legitimately whipped on both the 0.1/0.2 and 0.2/0.3 several times and I wouldn't trust any cam as much when I am going for it above my gear. Send or whip! 

JCM wrote

 Also remember that the range on the Metolius cams is limited due to thier choice of camming angle...

JCM is correct, metolius cams do have less range than C4s and aliens and other brands due to their single axle design and their low cam angle.  

However you should be aware that the range of metolius cams is often misrepresented when comparing them to other brands.  This is because metolius specifies their cams EFFECTIVE range instead of their MAX range (unlike BD and other manufacturers) .   This is a significant discrepancy.  The  https://camparator.com/ site someone posted above has this problem,  as does almost every cam chart I have seen.

In practice,  the overlap between adjacent sizes of metolius cams is about the same as C4s, because 6 master cams cover the same range as 5 C4s (and weigh the same too).  I can't really say anything about other brands though. 

Optimistic wrote:

Well, first sort of anecdotally, it looks to me and some of my partners and I like at certain depths a horizontal edge will pull on the cables/cords and loosen the cams (the lower ones, I think). My partner wrote to Metolius and they told him that Mastercams are not designed for horizontal placements. This thread describes a similar email interaction (from someone other than my partner).

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/109977711/redesigned-metolius-mastercams

Thanks, I'm going to take your word on it and/or check mine out next time to see how they react in horizontal placements. Not really worth reading through 6 pages of an old thread. 

Ryan Hamilton wrote:

Please explain why.  Seems like the stiff stem would be more of a problem, but I very rarely place pro in horizontal cracks. 

I have used the offset TCUs.  Though they are stuffer than a single stem, the three lobes do fit better in some pods than a 4 love cam ever would.  Is it worth the trade off?  I don't know.  If I was doubling up on offsets, I would go for 4 loved first, then offset TCUs.  Just my opinion.

cyclestupor wrote:

JCM is correct, metolius cams do have less range than C4s and aliens and other brands due to their single axle design and their low cam angle.  

However you should be aware that the range of metolius cams is often misrepresented when comparing them to other brands.  This is because metolius specifies their cams EFFECTIVE range instead of their MAX range (unlike BD and other manufacturers) .   This is a significant discrepancy.  The  https://camparator.com/ site someone posted above has this problem,  as does almost every cam chart I have seen.

In practice,  the overlap between adjacent sizes of metolius cams is about the same as C4s, because 6 master cams cover the same range as 5 C4s (and weigh the same too).  I can't really say anything about other brands though. 

Good to know, I didn't realize that they were spec'd out differently. Thanks for pointing that out.  

JCM wrote:

Totem Basic Blue/Green ~= X4 0.2/0.3 and Mastercam Purple/Blue

Totem Basic Green/Yellow ~= X4 0.3/0.4 and Mastercam Blue/Yellow

Totem Basic Yellow/Red ~= X4 0.4/0.5 and Mastercam Yellow/Orange

Conversions are approximate. In general, the X4s are a bit bigger that the equivalent basics So 0.3/0/4 X4 is a bit bigger than the green/yellow basic. Also remember that the range on the Metolius cams is limited due to thier choice of camming angle..

There are only 3 sizes of Offset Basics, so if you want the really little (0.1/0.2) or big (0.5/0.75) sizes, you'd have to go to X4s or Mastercams.

I think I'm going with the totem hybrids for sure.  To fill in the other gaps, what is the consensus.....x4 or master offset?

Joe Trabucco wrote:

I think I'm going with the totem hybrids for sure.  To fill in the other gaps, what is the consensus.....x4 or master offset?

Start just with those 3 sizes. Thats plenty of money to spend in one round of buying anyway. The really big and really small offsets are less useful for most general-purpose free climbing. You may find you don't need them.

JCM wrote:

Start just with those 3 sizes. Thats plenty of money to spend in one round of buying anyway. The really big and really small offsets are less useful for most general-purpose free climbing. You may find you don't need them.

Thank you