How to set up this toprope anchor?

David Kerkeslager wrote: . Is there an easier way I'm not seeing?

Yep. The method I mentioned. Requires only one cord and four biners. Adjust one or two cloves to switch routes. No untieing of anything.

1. Clip the shorter cordelette into bolt farthest from edge of cliff. Clip two opposed carabiners to this cordelette and attach the longer cordelette to the opposed biners.
2. Clip other end of long cordelette to second bolt. Lower the rig over edge. If the opposed biners don't reach the edge with a few inches to spare, flip the rig over, e.g., clip shorter cordelette to bolt nearest the edge.

Now you have options:

1. Clip the rope through the opposed biners, take slack out of long cordelette and be done.
2. Create sliding X in long cordelette, clip rope to this and be be done.
3. Create sliding X plus a limiter knot in long cordelette, clip rope and be done.
4. Tie a master point knot into long cordelette, clip rope to this and be done.

Obviously, the second option theoretically has the greatest potential for equalization but unacceptable possible extension.

You will probably have to adjust the length of the rig. Some options are:

1. Shorten the long cordelette at the bolt by tying the clove hitch (on two strands, per JBernard), the buntline, the overhand on the bight, etc.
2. Shorten both cordelettes via clove hitches etc.

This rig uses two more carabiners than JBernard's setup but can be used with a sliding X.

Pad the edges, have somebody ape on the rope for a final check, never use the deadly water knot etc.

Greg D wrote: Yep. The method I mentioned. Requires only one cord and four biners. Adjust one or two cloves to switch routes. No untieing of anything.

Okay,

Greg D wrote:You could achieve a redundant, equalized, no extension anchor with just one cordalette. If the bolts are 12 inches apart, for example, with the cord's knot in your hand, in between the two bolts, go 6 inches left and clove to a biner on the bolt. Then, go 6 inches right, clove to a biner on the other bolt. On the other side of the cord, you can tie to eights on a bight side-by-side or one BFK. Clip two biners here and put the rope through them. Done. Simply adjust one clove or the other on the bolts when moving to the other routes. Repeat this process with the other cord if you want it silly bomber.

Where's your redundancy if i.e. the knot between the bolts comes untied? Keep in mind that the clove hitch is only safe as a mid-line knot. I can see how relying on two rolling knots after your joining bend comes undone might be within some people's risk tolerance, but it's outside mine.

It's also not clear from the length descriptions of the cordelettes and the distance from the edge whether a single cordelette with a foot between the bolts and four knots in it will reach the edge. This problem is exacerbated the further apart the bolts are.

Nothing wrong with Greg's setup. The knot between the bolts won't come undone unless it's a deadly water knot, which it probably isn't, so the deadly clove hitches can't release from the carabiners. However, being that they are deadly clove hitches and will surely find a way to kill, my guess is they will slip until the cordelette becomes an American Death Triangle at which point the forces on the bolts exceed the shear strength and the whole thing comes crashing down. MUAHAHA

David Kerkeslager wrote: Keep in mind that the clove hitch is only safe as a mid-line knot.

Not true. A properly tied and dressed clove hitch is completely acceptable for TR anchors. Back it up if you want and you are good to go.

Eh, there's not much point to argue when anyone can verify with a rope and a carabiner that the clove hitch is a risky end-of-line knot. Tie the knot on the carabiner, and then simulate loading and unloading the rope. With my 9.5mm static rope, I was able to consistently loosen the knot in under 10 cycles. It tightens again when loaded, but with my 9.5mm rope it usually has slipped a half inch or inch. That's fine when you're mid-line, but if you're 12 inches away from the end of the rope, that only has to happen a few times to be a problem.

Or if you don't want to experiment, try the first Google result for "clove hitch" .

AnimatedKnots wrote:Caution: The Clove Hitch (ABOK # 1245, p 224) was, originally, included here with the intention of condemning it. It does have two giant faults: it slips and, paradoxically, can also bind. It should be deeply distrusted when used by itself.

This is also why ANSI Z133.1 (US, industry-developed national consensus safety standards of practice for tree care followed by arborists) requires a constricting knot when tying to a carabiner at the end of the line.

Obviously there are plenty of people anchoring with this knot as an end-of-line knot who haven't died and hey, if you never fall it won't matter, right? It's your life, do what you feel.

David Kerkeslager wrote: Okay, Where's your redundancy if i.e. the knot between the bolts comes untied?

Well, I'm assuming a little bit of slip of a clove is fine. AND, the cord is tied with a reliable knot such as a double fisherman's. But, even without out that, both cloves would have to fail for a deadly situation. So, redundancy is there even without a good joining knot in the cord.

David Kerkeslager wrote: It's also not clear from the length descriptions of the cordelettes and the distance from the edge whether a single cordelette with a foot between the bolts and four knots in it will reach the edge. This problem is exacerbated the further apart the bolts are.

Agreed. We don't know the exact length of the cords. For my rig, 12 or 13 feet would be needed.

mtc wrote:Nothing wrong with Greg's setup. The knot between the bolts won't come undone unless it's a deadly water knot, which it probably isn't, so the deadly clove hitches can't release from the carabiners. However, being that they are deadly clove hitches and will surely find a way to kill, my guess is they will slip until the cordelette becomes an American Death Triangle at which point the forces on the bolts exceed the shear strength and the whole thing comes crashing down. MUAHAHA

Assuming you are trolling.

If cloves slip so bad it reverts to an American Death Triangle, this is meaningless with a 12 foot cordalette and only a few feet between bolts. The angle is insignificant to create any meaningful load multiplication.

Greg D wrote: Well, I'm assuming a little bit of slip of a clove is fine. AND, the cord is tied with a reliable knot such as a double fisherman's. But, even without out that, both cloves would have to fail for a deadly situation. So, redundancy is there even without a good joining knot in the cord. Agreed. We don't know the exact length of the cords. For my rig, 12 or 13 feet would be needed.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm okay with this setup. The redundancy is really a double fisherman's backed up with a clove hitch backed up with a clove hitch. The clove hitch does slip quite a bit, but with two it's okay I think.

I still might rotate the cordelette so that the knot is further away from the clove hitches (sort of like giving yourself longer tails) but it's probably okay as-is.

David Kerkeslager wrote:Eh, there's not much point to argue when anyone can verify with a rope and a carabiner that the clove hitch is a risky end-of-line knot. Tie the knot on the carabiner, and then simulate loading and unloading the rope. With my 9.5mm static rope, I was able to consistently loosen the knot in under 10 cycles. It tightens again when loaded, but with my 9.5mm rope it usually has slipped a half inch or inch. That's fine when you're mid-line, but if you're 12 inches away from the end of the rope, that only has to happen a few times to be a problem. Or if you don't want to experiment, try the first Google result for "clove hitch" . This is also why ANSI Z133.1 (US, industry-developed national consensus safety standards of practice for tree care followed by arborists) requires a constricting knot when tying to a carabiner at the end of the line. Obviously there are plenty of people anchoring with this knot as an end-of-line knot who haven't died and hey, if you never fall it won't matter, right? It's your life, do what you feel.

I am not arguing Dave, I am simply telling you that when tied properly, a clove hitch is completely acceptable as an anchor attachment knot on a TR set up. I have to assume from your comments that you have never actually used a clove hitch for TR anchors. Fair enough, you have some preconceived notion about it's safety and no direct experience? (Maybe I'm wrong there.) I have been using clove hitches for almost 20 years to connect anchor legs to anchor points for TR set ups. I have tied them in everything from doubled 7mm cord (see pic in my earlier post), dynamic rope of all diameters, and 11mm static. I have run hundreds of climbers on these set ups. Folks climb, they fall on the rope, they get lowered, we'll rappel, all of it, all day long, over and over and over. I have NEVER, not even once, seen any evidence at all of any rope slippage at a clove hitch, not even your inch and a half. Like any knot or hitch they have to be tied properly, dressed, and tightened. I always back them up behind the clove because why not? Keep in mind, we are talking about top rope anchors where fall loads are measured in the low hundreds of pounds and anchors are dramatically overbuilt (no reason not to). Oh and I can play the google game too. Please see the experimental results in the chart. They were able to get a 1/4 inch slip at 1100 pounds in a 9mm rope. Completely insignificant when dealing with TR set ups. They were able to cause a 9mm rope to fail at 2600 pounds which is a load that cannot be duplicated in any TR situation (and would even cause any other knot to likely fail).

guidetricksforclimbers.com/…

Have fun and be safe.

The problem with relying solely on personal experience is that you only get to learn from the experiences that don't kill you. It's true you have more experience than me, but given my experience with the clove hitch as an end-of-line knot (which anyone can replicate) is it failing in a experimental scenario, I don't want to gain experience with the clove hitch as an end-of-line knot where its failure might be lethal.

The situation that produces slippage in a clove hitch is repeated light loading and unloading (i.e. what happens to a top rope being used by multiple people). The heavy loading experiments you refer to where the clove hitch doesn't aren't surprising, but don't prove anything about a repeated loading scenario.

I don't doubt that you have 20 years of experience using the clove hitch, but do you actually use it as an end-of-line knot? I have almost always seen it used as a mid-line knot (where some slippage doesn't matter).

I read nothing here and I'm just quarterbacking with my coffee...

But I use clove hitches all the time in TR setups. If we're talking the ideal world , an ideal TR anchor has redundancy. One of the very simple lessons of climbing is that you don't need to make your redundancy, redundant. Could a clove hitch fail, maybe, maybe 1,000,000 and that's why you have the other leg of the anchor. If that's not a good enough solution for you then why don't you have the DOT fabricate your TR anchor out of steel cable that way you know you're 'safe'.

That being said, my most often application fore a clove hitch is between multiple legs of multiple anchors with a static line. If I was using it end-of-line, I'd probably want to dress it with some sort of knot, but if the length of leftover cord was such that it was unreasonable maybe I'd do an eight on a bight clipped back, maybe I'd do nothing.

David Kerkeslager wrote:The problem with relying solely on personal experience is that you only get to learn from the experiences that don't kill you. It's true you have more experience than me, but given my experience with the clove hitch as an end-of-line knot (which anyone can replicate) is it failing in a experimental scenario, I don't want to gain experience with the clove hitch as an end-of-line knot where its failure might be lethal. The situation that produces slippage in a clove hitch is repeated light loading and unloading (i.e. what happens to a top rope being used by multiple people). The heavy loading experiments you refer to where the clove hitch doesn't aren't surprising, but don't prove anything about a repeated loading scenario. I don't doubt that you have 20 years of experience using the clove hitch, but do you actually use it as an end-of-line knot? I have almost always seen it used as a mid-line knot (where some slippage doesn't matter).

Yes I use it all the time, really. The key is to tie it correctly, dress and tighten it like any other knot. I think you are being a bit overly dramatic with your fears of a lethal accident. I have said repeatedly and showed in my initial drawing that I DO tie a back up behind the clove. Usually a figure 8 on a bight which gets clipped to a carabiner. I tie that knot usually only a couple inches behind the clove. If the clove did "slip" or "creep" it would stop after only the few inches it takes to get to the backup knot, BUT in my experience, the clove never moves. Like it REALLY NEVER MOVES even after a full day of folks playing on it. Of course there is no need to use it, you ain't missing much except it makes it very easy to fine tune the leg lengths of the whole anchor.

Yeah, I've never been too worried about clove hitches slipping. If anything, they cinch down like a mofo under load,